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Old 01-04-2017, 05:49 PM   #16
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I'm assuming you will continue to call my opinion and analysis . . . Avoidance . . . until it properly aligns with your opinion and analysis.





Basically we disagree on the level and prevalence of racism, xenophobia, sexism etc... of the Trump movement.



Oregoropa = Trump is a modern day Archie Bunker, conjured into popularity by an overreach of left wing policies and Politically correct culture



BVS = Trump's movement is fueled by the racist tendencies of his followers which increase and spread when he speaks leading to a scary reversal of social progress

No, I appreciate your recent engagement but I can see why people would be hesitant, there's been a history of avoidance.


I would say the area between those two descriptions would probably be the most accurate.


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Old 01-04-2017, 06:06 PM   #17
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No, I appreciate your recent engagement but I can see why people would be hesitant, there's been a history of avoidance.


I would say the area between those two descriptions would probably be the most accurate.

Word

I may avoid until I can give an item my full attention at a time of my choosing. It can be exhausting if you feel obligated to live in FYM.

Always good sparring.
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Old 01-04-2017, 06:23 PM   #18
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I too appreciate Oregoropa's perspective. I know for sure that going into silos where we only listen to opinions we agree with is a dead end.
I get the argument that Republicans saw in Trump a guy who probably got it wrong a few times, got it right other times but in general is a breath of fresh air.
And I get the perspective that many on the liberal side can get so into 'issues' that they fail to see other issues. Like unemployment.
And I get that Trump said he would make it all better.
What utterly confounds me is that his policy is ridiculous. To my ignorant mind anyway. And I can't accept 50 million people voted for him because of his policy. Yet it appears it was policy, ie curbing immigration and returning lost jobs, that appears to have swung it for him in the battleground states.
Immigration I dunno, I live in NZ so my perspective is irrelevant.
But bringing back factory jobs? Cutting taxes while engaging in a massive and expensive infrastructure build? Building a solid, physical wall on the Mexican border? Banning or vetting people entering based on their religion (which, of course, does not have a skin colour, accent or passport). Did these voters really analyse these things?

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Old 01-04-2017, 06:32 PM   #19
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Trump General Discussion IV: Unpresidented! Very sad!

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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
Probably because I was defending the viewpoint that racism can be grossly overstated in today's climate.


Do you understand how this statement is really problematic? Like, you get to deny the lived in experiences of others because ... why, exactly? Because you don't like it when people point out racism?
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:08 PM   #20
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I don't understand why a white, straight, Christian male, the most privileged position in American society, gets to decide that racism is grossly overstated? I mean that with absolute seriousness - how on earth would you know? You have no way of understanding the lives of racialized individuals and the baggage they bring with them to what are seemingly innocuous situations to you.
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:11 PM   #21
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Do you understand how this statement is really problematic? Like, you get to deny the lived in experiences of others because ... why, exactly? Because you don't like it when people point out racism?
A statement like that is only problematic because it doesn't adhere to the scripted progressive justice movement. It is true, I do not know what it is like to be a somebody in a protected class, which I gather is the new PC term for minority. Right now the progressive movement is calling balls and strikes. Setting the playing field over who is allowed to say something and who is not allowed to say something. We are not even arguing blatant hate speech. The actual word 'microagressions' fully encapsulates where we find ourselves as a society today.

I gather just upon hearing a white male saying that instances of racism can be exaggerated by the media is a microagression to some. If a certain person is not allowed to offer an over-arching analysis because of their skin color, and not the inherent uniqueness of their psyche therein lies a fundamental problem. This is where civil debate breaks down. Both sides isolate themselves. Then we end up with the most mind-boggling election match-up and post election day reactions in US History.
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:22 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
A statement like that is only problematic because it doesn't adhere to the scripted progressive justice movement. It is true, I do not know what it is like to be a somebody in a protected class, which I gather is the new PC term for minority. Right now the progressive movement is calling balls and strikes. Setting the playing field over who is allowed to say something and who is not allowed to say something.



It's always weird when you speak in this tongue, honestly it doesn't seem like the real you. I can't tell if you're trying to play the role or just been hanging out on Breitbart too much lately.

No, it's problematic period. When you make comments like that or how jobs "affect" people racism doesn't, that's a big part of the systematic problem. Can you not see that?


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Old 01-04-2017, 07:28 PM   #23
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BVS - Read the rest of my post. Setting the framework.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregoropa
If a certain person is not allowed to offer an over-arching analysis because of their skin color, and not the inherent uniqueness of their psyche therein lies a fundamental problem.
Are we going to box ourselves in to the point where a let's say a brilliant white heterosexual male (not me), with a desire to help humanity, challenges a tenant of the Social Justice platform, that they cannot be taken seriously?

(Good conversation all around.)
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:30 PM   #24
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Oregoropa = Trump is a modern day Archie Bunker, conjured into popularity by an overreach of left wing policies and Politically correct culture
Well, in a way you're dead on...

[Quote]Norman Lear originally intended that Bunker be strongly disliked by audiences. Lear was shocked when Bunker quietly became a beloved figure to much of middle America. Lear thought that Bunker's opinions on race, sex, marriage, and religion were so wrong as to represent a parody of right-wing bigotry.[/quot e]
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:37 PM   #25
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I don't understand why a white, straight, Christian male, the most privileged position in American society, gets to decide that racism is grossly overstated? I mean that with absolute seriousness - how on earth would you know? You have no way of understanding the lives of racialized individuals and the baggage they bring with them to what are seemingly innocuous situations to you.
While I agree with this, I also feel a society has to be very careful not to insinuate a whole bunch of people are ignorant or lack compassion because they are white. I'm a white male, and have never experienced racism. As a pathetic teenager I engaged in racism. I hate that I did that, and I hate that people's lives are still affected by their race. And they are.
But I also think society is better if I, a white male, can lift my head up and speak out if I think racism is being overplayed by some.
I'm not saying that's happening. But I get uncomfortable with the idea that my ability to speak truth in a given situation is diminished because I'm white.

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Old 01-04-2017, 07:40 PM   #26
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While I agree with this, I also feel a society has to be very careful not to insinuate a whole bunch of people are ignorant or lack compassion because they are white. I'm a white male, and have never experienced racism. As a pathetic teenager I engaged in racism. I hate that I did that, and I hate that people's lives are still affected by their race. And they are.
But I also think society is better if I, a white male, can lift my head up and speak out if I think racism is being overplayed by some.
I'm not saying that's happening. But I get uncomfortable with the idea that my ability to speak truth in a given situation is diminished because I'm white.

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Old 01-04-2017, 07:41 PM   #27
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I am not saying that you aren't able to participate in the conversation but to make broadly sweeping statements that racism is overstated when you AT NO POINT IN YOUR LIFE experienced it really does take a lot of chutzpah.

When people of colour talk to me about their experiences and why they still feel like they are on the outs, I listen. And I tend to be deferential to them because as a white woman I have absolutely no right to tell them that they are wrong to feel the way they do.
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:41 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
I'm assuming you will continue to call my opinion and analysis . . . Avoidance . . . until it properly aligns with your opinion and analysis.





Basically we disagree on the level and prevalence of racism, xenophobia, sexism etc... of the Trump movement.



Oregoropa = Trump is a modern day Archie Bunker, conjured into popularity by an overreach of left wing policies and Politically correct culture



BVS = Trump's movement is fueled by the racist tendencies of his followers which increase and spread when he speaks leading to a scary reversal of social progress


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
Word

I may avoid until I can give an item my full attention at a time of my choosing. It can be exhausting if you feel obligated to live in FYM.

Always good sparring.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
I'm guessing we should feel completely comfortable about discussing racial issues. There is a comfort for a white person if you stick to the social justice script. If you have a dissenting viewpoint or an out-of-the-box idea you become vulnerable to verbal attack. Colleges and Universities have abandoned traditional liberal values of free speech and open debate. I've been called a fuck, asshole, cunt in FYM just for having a different opinion.

I had to approach last night's 'splaining with a jurist's mindset. Probably because I was defending the viewpoint that racism can be grossly overstated in today's climate.

A climate that made it conducive for Trump to win.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
A statement like that is only problematic because it doesn't adhere to the scripted progressive justice movement. It is true, I do not know what it is like to be a somebody in a protected class, which I gather is the new PC term for minority. Right now the progressive movement is calling balls and strikes. Setting the playing field over who is allowed to say something and who is not allowed to say something. We are not even arguing blatant hate speech. The actual word 'microagressions' fully encapsulates where we find ourselves as a society today.

I gather just upon hearing a white male saying that instances of racism can be exaggerated by the media is a microagression to some. If a certain person is not allowed to offer an over-arching analysis because of their skin color, and not the inherent uniqueness of their psyche therein lies a fundamental problem. This is where civil debate breaks down. Both sides isolate themselves. Then we end up with the most mind-boggling election match-up and post election day reactions in US History.


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Old 01-04-2017, 07:44 PM   #29
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I am not saying that you aren't able to participate in the conversation but to make broadly sweeping statements that racism is overstated when you AT NO POINT IN YOUR LIFE experienced it really does take a lot of chutzpah.
Agree

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Old 01-04-2017, 07:50 PM   #30
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I am not saying that you aren't able to participate in the conversation but to make broadly sweeping statements that racism is overstated when you AT NO POINT IN YOUR LIFE experienced it really does take a lot of chutzpah.
Going back to my original long-form post in (Trump volume III) one of my big arguments was that the media tends to fuel the fire. Taking an out of context statement by a public figure and jacking it up a few notches on the racial outrage factor if that would benefit a desired political outcome.

I was basically summarizing why I took my time writing out my views which were labeled as whitesplaining.
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