Trayvon Martin's murderer George Zimmerman is still a free man

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It's interesting the attack and the spin that some are putting on this story. The marijuana story means nothing to this story unless they can show he was high at the time. And the story of him going after Zimmerman doesn't seem to really add up with the 911 calls and seems fishy coming out so late.
 
Yeah, I just read a thing about Zimmerman's take on it all. Even if his version was what happened, it still sounds like he started the whole thing by going after the guy in the first place. Most people would react if someone just started following them for no specific reason.
 
Moonlit_Angel said:
Even if his version was what happened, it still sounds like he started the whole thing by going after the guy in the first place. Most people would react if someone just started following them for no specific reason.
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I agree. Some person following you in a non police vehicle, in the dark (I'm assuming it was completely dark). That neighbor of Zimmerman's who keeps defending him on tv, he said that all that Trayvon had to do was give him his name and justify his presence there, I guess, by saying what he was doing there. Like lawyers have said on tv, you don't even have to give that info to a police officer per the US Constitution. I've had an experience being harassed by a cop while just walking down a street and I regretfully gave him my name, only because I know how some of them tend to react when you refuse to follow their "orders". Small town cops with nothing else to do.

Anyway, the whole pot thing..and apparently his Facebook page had some photos that some people are calling "menacing" that have been taken down. I know nothing about the accuracy of that. One thing I read said he had gold teeth? Apparently that makes you a thug and a criminal.

What could have avoided the whole thing was Zimmerman backing off and not following Trayvon, like he was instructed to do.
 
I've been in Florida since Thursday, and thankfully have not been shot. Even while wearing my black hoodie. Phew.
 
Yeah, someone at work was telling me about this pot thing last night. I have no idea what's going on with that, could someone direct me to a link, if I missed one, or please post one?
 
This case is bringing out all the worst in this country. I'm afraid it's only going to get worse in regards to public reaction and divide us more.

Zimmerman should have never followed him, especially after being told it wasn't necessary. It forced a reaction from Martin, and from the sounds of it, a defensive/violent one.

That put Zimmerman back on the defensive, and by law he was within his right to shoot Martin.

I am not saying he should have shot him, I'm just saying that according to the law, Zimmerman felt he was in a position to have to defend his life, and felt it was necessary to use his gun.

That's just messed up and we haven't even brought race or the age difference into the equation.

I'm concerned that if Zimmerman isn't put away, there will be potential for race riots, and further violence.
 
bono_212 said:
Yeah, someone at work was telling me about this pot thing last night. I have no idea what's going on with that, could someone direct me to a link, if I missed one, or please post one?
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I don't have a link, but what I heard is that Martin was suspended from school for having pot? Not really a big deal, and just a means for those *racists* to show that Martin was a gangsta, and deserved to be shot!!

OMGZ!!! He smoked Pot!! See, he was up to no good that night!!!!!

I don't care if he smoked weed, listened to rap, had gold teeth, a million tattoos, he did nothing wrong that night to provoke Zimmerman except be a black teenager in a gated community.
 
BEAL said:
I am not saying he should have shot him, I'm just saying that according to the law, Zimmerman felt he was in a position to have to defend his life, and felt it was necessary to use his gun.
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And that's why that law is so fed up. It's something about reasonably believing that your life is at stake. How do you precisely define that? It just seems so open ended and subjective to me. Since FL passed that law, "justified killings" have gone up almost threefold. That's one stat that I saw somewhere on the news. I think they've got to get rid of that law.

The police also let him leave with the clothes he was wearing, so any evidence from his clothing is gone.





From yesterday's Orlando Sentinel



With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. There have been no reports that a witness saw the initial punch Zimmerman told police about.

Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened Feb. 26. But that night, and in later meetings, he described and re-enacted for police what he says took place.

In his version of events, Zimmerman had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words and then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

Zimmerman told police he shot the teenager in self-defense.

Civil-rights leaders and more than a million other people have demanded Zimmerman's arrest, calling Trayvon a victim of racial profiling and suggesting Zimmerman is a vigilante.

Trayvon was an unarmed black teenager who had committed no crime, they say, who was gunned down while walking back from a 7-Eleven with nothing more sinister than a package of Skittles and can of Arizona iced tea.

Zimmerman's account

This is what the Sentinel has learned about Zimmerman's account to investigators:

He said he was on his way to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon walking through his gated community.

Trayvon was visiting his father's fiancée, who lived there. He had been suspended from school in Miami after being found with an empty marijuana baggie. Miami schools have a zero-tolerance policy for drug possession.

Police have been reluctant to provide details about their evidence.

But after the Sentinel story appeared online Monday morning, City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. issued a news release, saying there would be an internal-affairs investigation into the source of the leak and, if identified, the person or people involved would be disciplined.

He did not challenge the accuracy of the information.

At a Monday news conference, Trayvon's mother, father and their lawyers called the report that their son was suspended from school because of a marijuana baggie irrelevant and needlessly hurtful.

Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, said "even in death, they are still disrespecting my son, and I feel that that's a sin."

His mother, Sybrina Fulton, said, "They killed my son, and now they're trying to kill his reputation."

Supporters have held rallies in Sanford, Miami, New York and Tallahassee, calling the case a tragic miscarriage of justice.

Civil-rights activist the Rev. Al Sharpton headlined a rally in Sanford on Thursday that drew an estimated 8,000 people. The Rev. Jesse Jackson on Sunday spoke at an Eatonville church, where he called Trayvon a martyr.

Zimmerman has gone into hiding. A fringe group, the New Black Panther Party, has offered a $10,000 reward for his "capture."

One-minute gap

On Feb. 26, when Zimmerman first spotted Trayvon, he called police and reported a suspicious person, describing Trayvon as black, acting strangely and perhaps on drugs.

Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that.

There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened.

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.

Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

Zimmerman began yelling for help.

Several witnesses heard those cries, and there has been a dispute about whether they came from Zimmerman or Trayvon.

Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.

One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities.

When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.

Paramedics gave him first aid but he said he did not need to go to the hospital. He got medical care the next day.
 
This story doesn't really seem to add up. So Zimmerman who was ready to play lone ranger some how gave up and nonchalantly retreated? Only to get knocked out with one punch? And then the crying out for help; one it sounded like a much younger voice, and two it didn't sound like someone who was being sat on and being pummeled. Now I would assume with audio forensics this should be fairly simple to "prove". But then after all of this Zimmerman then has the ability to grab his gun and shoot?

We'll never know the full story, but something doesn't add up with his account. Plus wouldn't you want to release this police report and witness in order to help Zimmerman's and the Police departments case, rather than bring up pot use and gold teeth?
 
Huh, that's interesting. I'm curious to see where everything goes with that information.

Again, regardless of what info comes out, Zimmerman NEVER should have pursued him, and NEVER should have been allowed to shoot him and walk away.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
Zimmerman also allegedly told police that Trayvon tried to get his gun
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See this type of struggle would make much more sense but it doesn't seem to coincide with the evidence. He never said anything about a struggle for the gun. How does someone who is pinned down, crying out for help somehow win the upper hand and get the gun?
 
Dan Abrams To GMA: ‘Stand Your Ground’ Was ‘Not Designed To Protect Aggressor Who Loses A Fight’ | Mediaite

On Tuesday, Mediaite founder and ABC legal analyst Dan Abrams appeared on Good Morning America to explain what impact an eye witness account of the altercation between Trayvon Martin and his shooter, George Zimmerman may have on the ongoing investigation into the shooting. Furthermore, does Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law apply in light of this account?

Abrams warns that the witness’ account — that Martin had been beating Zimmerman on the ground — in no way decides the case. But it does provide us with “some context as to why the police possibly could have done what they did,” as well as providing “more information as to why, maybe, the police were so quick to accept Zimmerman’s story.

“The ‘Stand Your Ground’ law was not designed to protect an aggressor who starts losing a fight,” Abrams explained. “That’s not what this law is for. And that would not, I do not think, protect Zimmerman in this case. Meaning, if the facts were that Zimmerman goes after him, they get into an altercation, and let’s say that Trayvon Martin starts winning the fight, Zimmerman pulls out his gun because he’s getting scared, that’s not going to protect Zimmerman. On the other hand, what Zimmerman is claiming is, he approaches him, turns his back, Trayvon Martin attacks him. That would be a different scenario.”

“Stand Your Ground” is essentially “protection for somebody who kills somebody else.” Furthermore, he continued, under the Florida law, “if you reasonably believe — and reasonably becomes the crucial standard — reasonably believe that you are in some sort of imminent danger, then you are allowed to use deadly force, if necessary. That’s why this is so tricky.”

“I’m convinced,” he added, “that if the Florida Stand Your Ground law didn’t exist, Zimmerman already would have been charged.”
 
BVS said:
This story doesn't really seem to add up. So Zimmerman who was ready to play lone ranger some how gave up and nonchalantly retreated? Only to get knocked out with one punch? And then the crying out for help; one it sounded like a much younger voice, and two it didn't sound like someone who was being sat on and being pummeled. Now I would assume with audio forensics this should be fairly simple to "prove". But then after all of this Zimmerman then has the ability to grab his gun and shoot?
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So many assumptions. Have you heard Zimmerman scream before? Why would he not be able to scream with someone sitting on top of him? What would have stopped him from getting his gun? I'm not taking either side on this. It's fucked up that someone got shot and killed, but there is some pretty brainless assumptions coming from both sides of the fence
 
Sounds to me like two people who felt threatened and felt the need to "stand their ground."

I am always annoyed when Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson show up. In general, they don't help.
 
Except for the details about the initial altercation, there's really nothing new in the Orlando Sentinel's account--the Miami Herald cited Sanford police a week ago as saying Zimmerman's story involved Martin returning and jumping Zimmerman after Zimmerman had abandoned pursuit. So it was already a given that that would be the narrative any prosecutors involved would have to cast doubt on, and unfortunately for them we (apparently) have no eyewitnesses to the initial confrontation, only to the last couple minutes before the shooting (and conflicting accounts at that). If they didn't succeed in doing so--and the burden here would be on the prosecution to disprove, not on the defendant to prove--then yes, Zimmerman would almost certainly be let off, because according to his story he'd made an attempt to retreat, thus covering his tail even though he'd done the initial provoking.

That story really, really strains credulity though. Why would a highschool kid who was returning home from a snack run during the halftime of family night watching the NBA game, and who was initially frightened enough (per both Zimmerman's and the girlfriend's accounts) to run away from the strongly-built older man tailing him, respond to that man retreating by going 'OK, well now I'm gonna go back and beat the shit out of him' (without even bothering to hang up with his girlfriend, apparently)? If the claim were instead that Martin, from the very first moment he realized he was being followed, had wheeled around, charged and attacked Zimmerman, that to me would actually seem somewhat more plausible (though I'm guessing 'Stand Your Ground' would've justified Martin in doing that? and what do you do with a situation where both parties had a right to 'stand their ground,' anyway--whoever lives wins?). Or perhaps if Zimmerman had unwittingly retreated to a position where he was blocking Martin's access to his father's fiancee's house, such that Martin could've reasonably perceived him as lying in wait (wouldn't that also be 'stand your ground' from both ends?); that's the only plausible-seeming explanation I can think of for Zimmerman's story.

In any case, as other posters have noted, none of the possible scenarios change the fact that both Martin and Zimmerman would be alive and well today if Zimmerman hadn't chosen to play self-appointed cop, and engage in profiling on top of it.
 
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yolland said:
Why would a highschool kid who was returning home from a snack run during the halftime of family night watching the NBA game, and who was initially frightened enough (per both Zimmerman's and the girlfriend's accounts) to run away from the strongly-built older man tailing him, respond to that man retreating by going 'OK, well now I'm gonna go back and beat the shit out of him' (without even bothering to hang up with his girlfriend, apparently)? If the claim were instead that Martin, from the very first moment he realized he was being followed, had wheeled around, charged and attacked Zimmerman, that to me would actually seem somewhat more plausible (though I'm guessing 'Stand Your Ground' would've justified Martin in doing that? and what do you do with a situation where both parties had a right to 'stand their ground,' anyway--whoever lives wins?). Or perhaps if Zimmerman had unwittingly retreated to a position where he was blocking Martin's access to his father's financee's house, such that Martin could've reasonably perceived him as lying in wait (wouldn't that also be 'stand your ground' from both ends?); that's the only plausible-seeming explanation I can think of for Zimmerman's story.
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But creating ideal scenarios in your head is completely fruitless. What if he initially only saw Zimmerman in the dark and was unable to get a good read on him? What if, after seeing that Zimmerman was really just a portly middle aged man, he wasn't afraid any more? What if he was initially scared, but talked himself into standing up for himself after a few minutes. All of these are completely plausible. It's pointless to say "I think it happened this way and it's the only explanation"
 
maycocksean said:
Sounds to me like two people who felt threatened and felt the need to "stand their ground."

I am always annoyed when Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson show up. In general, they don't help.
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apologize1.original.jpg
 
Jive Turkey said:
So many assumptions. Have you heard Zimmerman scream before? Why would he not be able to scream with someone sitting on top of him? What would have stopped him from getting his gun? I'm not taking either side on this. It's fucked up that someone got shot and killed, but there is some pretty brainless assumptions coming from both sides of the fence
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Well a couple of things:

I've studied voice a little and there are certain characteristics in tone and timbre that you find in age, regardless of how deep or high a person's voice is. Many others have heard this as well. It's also doesn't sound consistent with his size, but that's pretty difficult to determine.

If one's head is being slammed up and down on concrete while screaming there would be noticable change in sound. Just make a sound and shake your head up and down. The screams I heard on the tapes all sound pretty consistent. And someone sitting on your chest would hinder and effect the sound you could create as well.

Now as far as the gun, I'm just placing all the accounts into an order. He turns around to be greeted by a punch that knocked him to the ground, then immediately starts to get his head slammed into the concrete. That's pretty disorientating, and he's pretty helpless since Martin is on top him. So he's helplessly screaming yet he has the capability to recover and out man the gun from Martin? Sure its plausible, but seems far fetched. It sounds like he's playing both sides. But what does the report say about Martin's blood on him, where was Martin when he was actually shot?

So I would say more educated guesses rather than "brainless assumptions".
 
BVS said:
Well a couple of things:

I've studied voice a little and there are certain characteristics in tone and timbre that you find in age, regardless of how deep or high a person's voice is. Many others have heard this as well. It's also doesn't sound consistent with his size, but that's pretty difficult to determine.

If one's head is being slammed up and down on concrete while screaming there would be noticable change in sound. Just make a sound and shake your head up and down. The screams I heard on the tapes all sound pretty consistent. And someone sitting on your chest would hinder and effect the sound you could create as well.
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You've studied voice a little? Like, you're an expert or you've been on google?
You're right about it being difficult to determine, which is why you shouldn't make accusations about who it was screaming. All the other points about shaking your head and banging it on the ground are completely useless. You're listening to the sound of someone screaming many yards away over a telephone. You've got no way to determine any of these things and it's all completely worthless. It's not like the guy was making a constant "aaaaaaaaaaah" sound so you could hear the changes in pitch. It was random screaming.
I'll play the guessing game for a second anyway. What makes more sense? A man standing, pointing a gun at someone for 30 seconds while they scream, then shooting them in the stomach or someone getting beat on and screaming for 30 seconds until they pull their gun out and shoot?
 
BVS said:
Plausible, not ideal.

How else would you go about explaining the events of such an event?

This is exactly how it's done in the courtroom, you piece together the evidence you have.
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It's called conjecture and it absolutely does not hold up in a courtroom
 
Jive Turkey said:
But creating ideal scenarios in your head is completely fruitless. What if he initially only saw Zimmerman in the dark and was unable to get a good read on him? What if, after seeing that Zimmerman was really just a portly middle aged man, he wasn't afraid any more? What if he was initially scared, but talked himself into standing up for himself after a few minutes. All of these are completely plausible. It's pointless to say "I think it happened this way and it's the only explanation"
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Eh? I was describing scenarios under which the broad outlines of Zimmerman's story might make sense to me, not saying "what I think happened." Chasing down a pursuer who's retreated wouldn't be "standing your ground" anyway, according to either the statute or to common sense; it would be provocative aggression, so you'd need to account for the shift to that.
 
yolland said:
Eh? I was describing scenarios under which the broad outlines of Zimmerman's story might make sense to me, not saying "what I think happened." Chasing down a pursuer who's retreated wouldn't be "standing your ground" anyway, according to either the statute or to common sense; it would be provocative aggression, so you'd need to account for the shift to that.
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But to make assumptions like 'well, he ran at first, so he wouldn't have changed his mind and decided to confront Zimmerman' or 'Maybe Zimmerman was blocking his way back to his Mom's house and looked like he was lying in wait' have no basis in anything. Just because the guy initially ran doesn't mean that he couldn't have turned back around.
You guys are making all kinds of assumptions about this kid's actions based on what is allegedly a 5 year old photo of him. For all we know, he was an asshole. (just as Zimmerman could very well be an asshole)
 
BVS said:
What are you talking about?

So in courtrooms do they only allow for videotaped footage of murders to be submitted and everyone else is set free?
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Go ahead and read my other posts

You really think "well, maybe he was blocking the way back to his Mom's house' would stand up in court?? C'mon man. And I'm not picking on Yolland (Yolland is awesome), it was just the most recent
 
Jive Turkey said:
You've studied voice a little? Like, you're an expert or you've been on google?
Click to expand...

Minored in school, and took an elective that was forensic audio.


Jive Turkey said:
I'll play the guessing game for a second anyway. What makes more sense? A man standing, pointing a gun at someone for 30 seconds while they scream, then shooting them in the stomach or someone getting beat on and screaming for 30 seconds until they pull their gun out and shoot?
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No one is arguing the first scenario.
 
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