Trayvon Martin's murderer George Zimmerman is still a free man - Page 42 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-11-2013, 12:42 PM   #616
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
If you think the case is being 'bumbled', it betrays your prejudice
Was your favorite toy as a kid Stretch Armstrong?
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 07-11-2013, 12:46 PM   #617
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
I can't stand the phrase "play the race card."
Do you have a preferred phrase or description for the implication of racial prejudice without factual evidence?
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-11-2013, 12:49 PM   #618
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
Do you have a preferred phrase or description for the implication of racial prejudice without factual evidence?
The lack of factual evidence doesn't mean that the prejudice isn't there. Nor does it mean that the prejudice is there.

Therein lies the rub.

Much in the realm of racial prejudice is very difficult to prove.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-11-2013, 12:52 PM   #619
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
If you think the case is being 'bumbled', it betrays your prejudice
I would disagree if the criticism of the Prosecutor's handling the case was done on a objective peer-review basis.

Even as a seasoned attorney, I would not venture to second guess the Prosecutor's ability with any specificity. Also, we forget the big wild card of the jury (which is given wide latitude in weighing evidence).
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-11-2013, 12:56 PM   #620
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
The lack of factual evidence doesn't mean that the prejudice isn't there. Nor does it mean that the prejudice is there.

Therein lies the rub.

Much in the realm of racial prejudice is very difficult to prove.
Much like our criminal system, where we have the presumption of innocence, I would suggest that the burden remains on the person making the accusation of prejudice to offer specific evidence of such.

Unfortunately, we've crossed over into a mentality that the charge can be made and it is up to the accused to prove their innocence.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-11-2013, 01:10 PM   #621
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
Much like our criminal system, where we have the presumption of innocence, I would suggest that the burden remains on the person making the accusation of prejudice to offer specific evidence of such.

Unfortunately, we've crossed over into a mentality that the charge can be made and it is up to the accused to prove their innocence.
I essentially agree with you, which is why I, personally, try to avoid making accusations of racism even when I am personally certain that racism is present.

For me, while I feel race is definitely a factor in how the Zimmerman-Martin situation has played out, my feelings about what happened and what should be the appropriate consequence have nothing to do with the race of those involved.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-11-2013, 01:29 PM   #622
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,290
Local Time: 09:03 AM
It's sad that at the bottom of this media-distorted CNN gong show of a case is a dead young kid who had his whole life in front of him.

None of us will ever know what really happened that day. Whether Zimmerman is guilty or not, he is a great example of why stricter gun laws should exist. People like him have no business carrying concealed weapons around town. Nobody, including Zimmerman, is safer because he did that. In fact, one person is dead. That's tragic.

I have no idea why this is on CNN all day, it's not like it's a landmark legal case, but there they go. I already don't pay for other "news" channels like Fox (no commentary needed) and MSNBC (do they still have those prison shows on half the day??), but CNN is foisted upon me with the package and I sometimes have to flip past it to get to my home and garden shows.
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 07-11-2013, 01:34 PM   #623
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
I'm gonna call bullshit on this.

Particularly because I know you can take it with out throwing a fit.


I will concede that your view that, even if Zimmerman is telling the truth, a crime was still committed is measured and rational. Maybe my comment isn't all encompassing
(I'll respond to your longer post in a bit. Heading out)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Was your favorite toy as a kid Stretch Armstrong?
Were yours paint chips and a Carlos Mencia joke book?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
I would disagree if the criticism of the Prosecutor's handling the case was done on a objective peer-review basis.

Even as a seasoned attorney, I would not venture to second guess the Prosecutor's ability with any specificity. Also, we forget the big wild card of the jury (which is given wide latitude in weighing evidence).
This is just it though. So many arm chair lawyers and declarations of "I know he's not telling the truth".

"Oh, you watched it on the TV all day, did you?"
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline  
Old 07-11-2013, 01:55 PM   #624
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post

This is just it though. So many arm chair lawyers and declarations of "I know he's not telling the truth".

"Oh, you watched it on the TV all day, did you?"
That's quite different than those of us saying, we don't think there was enough evidence to charge with murder.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 07-11-2013, 02:17 PM   #625
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
U2DMfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: It's Inside A Black Hole
Posts: 6,637
Local Time: 08:03 AM
This is a...muddy discussion to me on the last two pages.

Let's be clear. Zimmerman's story is known. He has made statements to the police. There is a full video explaining what happened, according to him, from his own lips. His defense team has already presented the opening argument many days ago. And all the evidence has now been presented on either side. All that is left are closing arguments. And, as far as I understand, that is beginning today.

It's not like people can't reasonably choose to believe him or not at this point. The trial, short of those closing statements, is effectively over as far as that goes. Maybe something new happens in closing statements (doubtful), we shall see.

So if you've actually gathered from that evidence and the trial itself that he is guilty of something beyond simple defense, then you haven't "presupposed" anything at all. But not everyone has done this. Some have a 'rooting' interest. In that respect, I do think JT is right. And I do think most of the hand-wringing over the prosecution's handling of the case has been...excuse making. And could well be effective presupposition of guilt.

All of this discussion about the prosecution's handling of the case is really irrelevant. I think they over-charged simply because they never could have proved 2nd degree murder. Not because I think they are "bumbling" the case. Furthermore, it seems they have made a solid argument for manslaughter. So judging the prosecution's case, based on what I've seen, heard and understand, I think it's accurate to say they over-charged. I believe they over-charged because I still don't believe he was in fear of his life. And I only came to that conclusion after that evidence, circumstantial or not, was presented.

Even if you believed he was 100% innocent, you'd believe he was over-charged. Even one of the most respected lawyers in the country, Alan Dershowitz, believes he was over-charged. And while he is a Harvard Law professor, he is also a defense lawyer, certainly not making excuses on the prosecution's behalf or presupposing anything.
__________________
U2DMfan is offline  
Old 07-11-2013, 03:50 PM   #626
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
Do you have a preferred phrase or description for the implication of racial prejudice without factual evidence?


perhaps this phrase exactly?

"play the race card" is a stupid and bad cliche, a political dog whistle. it's a (usually) white person's attempt to pretend that race doesn't actually exist -- i'm colorblind! -- when in fact race informs most facets of American life, and especially at the intersection of crime and guns and it lets white people diminish the lived in experience of racism by people who are racial minorities, and to pretend that anyone who sees race as a factor -- in anything -- is the "real" racist.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 07-11-2013, 05:58 PM   #627
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post

Today, I found out that the gun was actually holstered on GZ's right side rather than in his back waistband which, if true, does cause me to readdress the story over the struggle for the gun
Do you remember where you found that out? Only asking because I believe he told the police he had it in the back waistband, and demonstrated that to them. His different versions of the events have many inconsistencies, from what I've had the limited time to read online that's what the prosecutor focused on in his closing. If someone has different versions of the same event, and they have motive and ability to lie (only other true witness is dead), that quacks like a duck to me. I judge if people are lying or assholes or whatever by their behavior and character and the things they say or do, most people do unless they're inhuman bots/superior beings who have no judgment about anything or anyone. Including themselves. It tends to probably be that most often, oblivious about themselves, but I digress.

This is a low traffic U2 message board, not a court of law (though some people seem to like to treat it as if it is). If I was on that jury I would probably have to acquit the guy of second degree murder. It's the state's burden of proof to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and that would have to be done according to the charge and definition given by the judge. I would have to think about the manslaughter, don't know enough about that to say. But in all likelihood that hasn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt either. I can think the guy is a liar and still have to acquit him. That's the way it works, you can't convict someone merely because you don't believe their version of events. I have no agenda, but I am perfectly entitled to the OPINION that this guy was a paranoid obsessed cop wannabe who was at the very least making assumptions (if not profiling, profiling does not have to be strictly racial), and did follow someone he should not have followed. He could legally follow him, but what was morally and ethically right is a whole different story. Plus he's not a cop (he tried but was rejected), and was told not to. I think he could have easily gotten carried away and gone too far and then had to embellish after the fact. He knew what was required, he took classes. I believe I read they were college courses taught by a JAG (I believe he testified he was one of his best students if not the best), so it wasn't some "low level" community ed type of thing. Maybe he had to embellish so much that he couldn't keep his stories straight?

I think he's dishonest and has embellished his account (s) of what happened, in fact I think that's fairly obvious based upon the numerous inconsistencies. I also think that Trayvon Martin had plenty of reason to be afraid of George Zimmerman-a stranger to him who never identified himself and is watching him from a vehicle. He says not following of course. Trayvon Martin was coming home with Skittles to watch the NBA All Star Game. I don't see him logically flying into a murderous rage because of that fear, but of course anything is possible. Possible does not necessarily mean plausible. But you can't convict or acquit in a court of law over possible. You can, however, have an opinion based upon that outside a court of law.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 07-11-2013, 06:59 PM   #628
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
U2DMfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: It's Inside A Black Hole
Posts: 6,637
Local Time: 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
Do you remember where you found that out? Only asking because I believe he told the police he had it in the back waistband, and demonstrated that to them. His different versions of the events have many inconsistencies, from what I've had the limited time to read online that's what the prosecutor focused on in his closing. If someone has different versions of the same event, and they have motive and ability to lie (only other true witness is dead), that quacks like a duck to me.
I'm sure I saw it last night when they were showing highlights of the 'dummy' testimony. Perhaps the prosecution were referring to the gun being holstered on "his right side" only in an effort to discredit that. I am not positive, I haven't been watching this stuff live.

I try to absorb as much decent coverage online as I can. And I have seen Anderson Cooper from time to time as well. I wouldn't watch FOX or MSNBC's coverage if you paid me and you'd have to torture me to watch HLN.

But basically...in the video (his testimony to cops from the scene) he places his hand essentially behind his back but on his back hip. It was not visible from the front. So, I don't know exactly what the truth is and apparently neither does Zimmerman relative to when he was being asked...about the gun...the most important detail of all.

So yeah. You've got one account of an event that, essentially, only two people participated in. And the only living person can't even get his story straight. Logic dictates, to me, (and if people support a 100% acquittal, I don't see a big issue) that he had to fudge his story here and there in order to justify his use of the gun. Otherwise, why would there be ANY conflict about his story? This, to me, is the essence of not believing that he was in fear of his life. And if he wasn't...manslaughter. But if people don't believe that's enough for a conviction, that's cool with me. I am just a random dude on the internet that is bored just enough. Football season needs to get here.
__________________
U2DMfan is offline  
Old 07-11-2013, 07:11 PM   #629
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post


Were yours paint chips and a Carlos Mencia joke book?
That's awesome. Props.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 07-11-2013, 09:09 PM   #630
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Manslaughter is a lesser included offense to second-degree murder; there'd be nothing stopping a jury from convicting Zimmerman of the lesser charge, should they reject both his self-defense claim and the prosecution's attempt to prove murder 2. It's possible they deliberately overcharged in an attempt to bait him into a plea deal; though that's unethical, prosecutors do it all the time, often with strong approval from the community which sees it as "tough on crime."

It's also possible Zimmerman's lawyer could skip SYG altogether and just go for self-defense; while that shifts the burden of proof to the defense, it'd also offer the advantage(?) that Zimmerman wouldn't have to take the stand and submit to cross-examination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
yes, I agree

looking in here a bit
I had been planning on saying it is not overcharged at all

they can always end up at manslaughter.

I still say Zimmerman the minority American (Latino) is responsible for the unjustified killing of Martin the minority American.

I did see a clip of Zimmerman's court appearance, they must have dubbed it in English. He did not sound or look Latino at all.

I think Yoland called this right in April 2012, I agreed with her then.

I hope Zimmerman, the child killer, is at least convicted of manslaughter.
__________________

__________________
deep is offline  
 

Tags
george zimmerman, stand your ground, trayvon martin

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com