Trayvon Martin's murderer George Zimmerman is still a free man - Page 41 - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-10-2013, 08:19 PM   #601
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I can't stand the phrase "play the race card."
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:38 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
We'll see if the verdict (assuming it comes back not guilty) is a result of (1) the prosecution failing to prove the murder charge, or (2) the successful use of the self-defense argument by the defendant.
The thing that really bugs me about this thread is that the excuses are already being set up for if he is judged to be not guilty. "The prosecution is bumbling the case" "witness x did poorly" "they overreached by not going for manslaughter". Is there not a chance he might be telling the truth and the trial will reveal that? The best of all is "I know he's not telling the truth"; when again did he take the stand?
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:10 PM   #603
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But it isn't a stand your ground case.
Well sure he's not using that as his defense but the point is that that's the only thing that made this case any bit more special than half of the other Orlando murders. Hell, I'm pretty sure some 17 year old kid just got murdered a couple of weeks ago.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:12 PM   #604
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I can't stand the phrase "play the race card."
Well I don't mean it in some defensive way to the suspect. I just mean it in the sense that there's no immediate reason to excite the idea that this was a racially motivated crime/lack of crime. Yet that's the first conclusion so many people jump to.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:36 PM   #605
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The thing that really bugs me about this thread is that the excuses are already being set up for if he is judged to be not guilty. "The prosecution is bumbling the case" "witness x did poorly" "they overreached by not going for manslaughter". Is there not a chance he might be telling the truth and the trial will reveal that? The best of all is "I know he's not telling the truth"; when again did he take the stand?
Has the prosecution done an outstanding job?

Was murder an appropriate charge under the circumstances?

How is it wrong to feel that Zimmerman's story does not add up to innocence on his part?

I don't see all of this adds up to "excuses."

I doubt there's a black person in America that saw this as a "slam-dunk" and is now scrambling for excuses for why it didn't pan out that way.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:31 PM   #606
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Has the prosecution done an outstanding job?
The thing is, it isn't a game. There was a real series of events that unfolded. How would you judge a prosecution team tasked with proving the guilt of an innocent man? Is it not completely possible that the prosecution is doing the best job possible with the available evidence because Zimmerman is indeed not guilty? How would you rate a prosecution team who successfully sent an innocent person to prison?
There was a comment earlier about what a shitty job the Medical Examiner did. I asked what the problem was, as I didn't really follow the testimony, but nobody replied. It seems to me that, of all the witnesses brought forward, a Medical Examiner would be giving some of the more objective information in the case. How does one mess that up? Was he not giving the answers the prosecution would hope for?

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Was murder an appropriate charge under the circumstances?
See above. And when listening to the debates here and elsewhere for the past several months, a murder charge seemed to be the circumstances people were describing. If it's necessary to try for a lesser charge because it's easier for a conviction, that says something in and of itself.

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How is it wrong to feel that Zimmerman's story does not add up to innocence on his part?
I'm not sure what you're asking here. Do you mean that, even if Zimmerman's story is completely truthful, there was still a crime committed? I suppose that at least stands up to independent debate.

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I don't see all of this adds up to "excuses."

I doubt there's a black person in America that saw this as a "slam-dunk" and is now scrambling for excuses for why it didn't pan out that way.
Why a black person? I mentioned the discussion in this thread. I'm not sure everyone's races here, but I assume most are white
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:54 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
See above. And when listening to the debates here and elsewhere for the past several months, a murder charge seemed to be the circumstances people were describing.
Which "people" were describing murder?

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If it's necessary to try for a lesser charge because it's easier for a conviction, that says something in and of itself.
Welcome to the reality of the system my friend. Lesser charges are very common, I don't think that says much at all. In this particular case I believe the murder charge was the result of caving into the emotions of the people rather than looking at the evidence.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:10 AM   #608
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Which "people" were describing murder?
I guess the same "people" you're talking about below?

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Welcome to the reality of the system my friend. Lesser charges are very common, I don't think that says much at all. In this particular case I believe the murder charge was the result of caving into the emotions of the people rather than looking at the evidence.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:22 AM   #609
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I guess the same "people" you're talking about below?
Well wouldn't that be proof that the prosecution bumbled the case by listening to the "people" instead of the evidence?

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"The prosecution is bumbling the case" "witness x did poorly" "they overreached by not going for manslaughter"
You're calling it "excuses" as if some are trying to preempt a decision not going their way, but I think most of us are saying the murder charge was wrong from the beginning.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:37 AM   #610
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Well wouldn't that be proof that the prosecution bumbled the case by listening to the "people" instead of the evidence?



You're calling it "excuses" as if some are trying to preempt a decision not going their way, but I think most of us are saying the murder charge was wrong from the beginning.
And all of this presupposes that he's guilty. It's a convenient out if the verdict is not guilty. "well, he would've been guilty had they just gone for manslaughter"
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:46 AM   #611
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And all of this presupposes that he's guilty. It's a convenient out if the verdict is not guilty. "well, he would've been guilty had they just gone for manslaughter"
I think you raise a valid point, JT. I think there are many that "want" Zimmerman to be guilty because he represents two many hot topics: racial profiling and gun control. A conviction of Zimmerman - to them - is a conviction of these two items.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:49 AM   #612
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And all of this presupposes that he's guilty. It's a convenient out if the verdict is not guilty. "well, he would've been guilty had they just gone for manslaughter"
I have no clue how you came to that conclusion based on those two sentences you quoted.
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Old 07-11-2013, 11:01 AM   #613
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If you think the case is being 'bumbled', it betrays your prejudice
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:00 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
The thing is, it isn't a game. There was a real series of events that unfolded. How would you judge a prosecution team tasked with proving the guilt of an innocent man? Is it not completely possible that the prosecution is doing the best job possible with the available evidence because Zimmerman is indeed not guilty? How would you rate a prosecution team who successfully sent an innocent person to prison?
There was a comment earlier about what a shitty job the Medical Examiner did. I asked what the problem was, as I didn't really follow the testimony, but nobody replied. It seems to me that, of all the witnesses brought forward, a Medical Examiner would be giving some of the more objective information in the case. How does one mess that up? Was he not giving the answers the prosecution would hope for?
I don't think he is guilty of the crime he's being accused of. That does not mean he's guilty of nothing.


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If it's necessary to try for a lesser charge because it's easier for a conviction, that says something in and of itself.
Yes, it says that murder is not an appropriate charge. He took someone's life--that is a crime, even if wasn't murder. To me the facts of the case are not clear cut enough to support a simple plea of self-defense and every one goes on their way. If Martin had been armed--in any way--I would feel differently. If Martin had initiated hostile contact with Zimmerman I would feel differently. Even if he'd been actively engaged in a crime when Zimmerman accosted him I'd feel differently.



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Do you mean that, even if Zimmerman's story is completely truthful, there was still a crime committed?
Yes.



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Why a black person? I mentioned the discussion in this thread. I'm not sure everyone's races here, but I assume most are white
This is hard to explain. I guess I was trying to express in a few sentences something that really can't be boiled down that easily. I'm the least angry of Angry Black Men out there and yet even I share that sense that the deck is stacked when it comes to my subset of the population in America. The implication often is (thought it may not have been your implication) is that it's the black community supposedly led by Sharpton, Jackson etc (who I personally detest by the way) that forced the prosecutions hand and now are "making excuses" because the trial isn't going as they thought it would, with the requisite riots to follow. (I hate that there is the assumption that these black folk are going to tear up the town if Zimmerman walks, I hate even more that the assumption is not unreasonable.) I was saying that to think that the black community, at least, assumed this would be slam dunk is to misunderstand the perspective of many black Americans. It was less a response to you specifically or those on this forum and more of a general observation.

I copied and pasted the below from a post I made on a discussion on Facebook. It pretty much summarizes where I stand on the issue.

He was innocent in that he was minding his own business until Zimmerman started following him. His personal foibles, his issues with his behavior and his parents are irrelevant here. One could argue that his handling off being followed was unwise, but that doesn't make him worthy of death. I work with kids all the time who feel they have to react "big" if they feel threatened or even disrespected. I think that is not an effective or safe way to respond and I tell them so but none of that makes them worthy of death. Look, I don't think Zimmerman intended to kill anyone and I believe that he was frightened and reacted from that fear, but that doesn't change the fact that he took someones life. I honestly feel that he should have to answer for that. There's a guy that I know that used to repair our car years ago. Good guy, family man and everything. He rear ended someone on a freeway while fiddling with the radio and the woman in the other car was killed. The last I heard this guy was going to prison for like ten years! (And this guy was white so no race was not a factor). I feel if a person like that has to serve time Zimmerman definitely should.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:03 PM   #615
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If you think the case is being 'bumbled', it betrays your prejudice
I'm gonna call bullshit on this.

Particularly because I know you can take it with out throwing a fit.
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