Trayvon Martin's murderer George Zimmerman is still a free man - Page 40 - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-09-2013, 04:57 PM   #586
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The judge can charge the jury to consider manslaughter, but apparently there is a big issue if the judge decides to do that - that might prevent it from happening. Maybe someone else can recall what that issue is.
I think it was posted earlier in the thread that it's an automatic lesser included charge in FL. Don't know what that issue is, haven't heard about that.

They made a big mistake charging him with second degree.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:08 PM   #587
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On the flip side... why would George Zimmerman want to get into a fight with a random kid with the intent of shooting him?

For their to be murder, there needs to be some sort of intent involved. The state NEVER should have gone after a murder charge in this case. They should have gone after a lesser, easier to prove charge. They bent to public pressure, and now they'll likely end up letting Zimmerman walk... although I do believe that he will eventually be found civilly liable.
Perhaps I need to elaborate more on my view and be more clear. I'm not suggesting there is any murder involved. I'm simply suggesting GZ is not telling the whole truth about the fight itself that led to the shooting. Of that, I am 100% confident.

Wanting or not wanting to get into a fight has nothing to do with the point I was trying to get at. It was about the fight as it happened. And the credibility of GZ's account, which doesn't seem to make sense to me.

After second guessing his account...from there I can basically speculate...

I think he killed him to stop the fight, regardless of why the fight happened. And he acquired the gun, on his own, to stop the beating he was receiving.

I don't believe TM reached for the gun, I don't believe GZ was truly in fear of his life, and I think GZ overreacted. He might also have known precisely what his rights were and figured, even subconsciously, that what he was doing was right. And lastly...he knew that justification and could simply tell it to police.

I think it is also possible, in addition to that, that he was shamed by being beaten up and (if so, probably subconsciously) took the easiest way out. I don't think he intended on killing (or set out to kill) TM at all. Just want to make that clear. I also don't believe he could amazingly shoot him straight through the heart while being so...scared and wrestling with the gun.

Anyway, I think manslaughter would be sufficient. Any jail time would be sufficient at this point. I'll let others argue that. I don't know the specifics.

Evidently the ME for the Defense said GZ had 6 wounds on his head.
Two cuts on the back of his head - one abt an inch long - another smaller.
Two 'bruises' on his temples, one on his forehead and his nose.

In other words, you could easily say 4 of those 6 wounds came from punches, likely when TM was on top of him. While the other two cuts on the back of his head came from the cement. And STILL I am supposed to believe TM saw that gun in his back waistband - and went after it. At what point? In the dark? I'm sorry, I am trying to be fair to GZ here, honestly.

I stayed quiet for as long as I could. I waited for the trial. I dodged all the race card BS and the politics. And I've tried to absorb the trial evidence as it has come out. And I ALWAYS presume innocence if I possibly can, through the empathy that people would (hopefully) assume that about me should I have the misfortune of being accused of something. But my goodness...

As I am simultaneously realizing GZ is going to walk free (some FL prosecutors seem to like to over-charge and see the defendants walk), I am also coming to my own realization that there is (likely) little reason he should.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:50 PM   #588
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I'm also 100 confident that GZ isn't being completely truthful. My gut, and reason and logic, tells me so. And the fact that he's the only one of the two left living, without any real living witness to back him up visually and audibly-his entire account (s). He can embellish to his heart's content and put words(and actions) in the mouth of a dead man in order to bolster his defense.

I think he followed Trayvon when he was told not to, and in my mind that makes him the first aggressor. If he had just let the police do their job instead of trying to do it for them..well barring a police incident, Trayvon is alive today.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:30 PM   #589
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I'd love to send Zimmerman away for being reckless, idiotic, ignoring the dispatcher's requests, etc. etc. But given the facts that have been presented I just don't know how he gets convicted of murder.

Maybe if he was up on a charge of negligent homicide there would be a better shot at a conviction.
I agree, the charge of murder was an overreach, and for those that fall for the "this is a right/ left issue", the result will be a dangerous precedent.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:22 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post

On the flip side... why would George Zimmerman want to get into a fight with a random kid with the intent of shooting him?
Maybe because the kid was a "fucking punk" that "always get[s] away" and he was determined not to let this one get away?

That said, I agree with the rest of your post.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:08 PM   #591
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I'm also 100 confident that GZ isn't being completely truthful. My gut...
Well there's a good way to immediately discredit your preceding sentence
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:18 PM   #592
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Is Zimmerman's story somewhat far-fetched in some aspects? Sure. But it's not impossible, and there has been no actual evidence to discredit it.

The prosecution is charged with proving guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. The defense needs merely to introduce a shadow of a doubt, not prove innocence.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:58 PM   #593
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Is Zimmerman's story somewhat far-fetched in some aspects? Sure. But it's not impossible, and there has been no actual evidence to discredit it.

The prosecution is charged with proving guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. The defense needs merely to introduce a shadow of a doubt, not prove innocence.
And this is why it was stupid to go after a murder charge.
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:07 AM   #594
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Is Zimmerman's story somewhat far-fetched in some aspects? Sure. But it's not impossible, and there has been no actual evidence to discredit it.

The prosecution is charged with proving guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. The defense needs merely to introduce a shadow of a doubt, not prove innocence.
in your universe someone could come over and kill Caleb8844 and then say "he said "tonight you die" so I was afraid for my life. I acted in self defense"
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:57 AM   #595
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I wish this thread didn't exist and these stupid celebrity murder trials would stop happening down the road from me haha.

But seriously, so much of it is hearsay. The only thing that I'm convinced of is the fact that Zimmerman acted as a vigilante and facilitated what may or may not have been a murder.

Unless more evidence appears I think you've just got to look at it like that. Smells like some form of manslaughter would be the only convictable charge -- but I'm no lawyer.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:30 PM   #596
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The prosecution is charged with proving guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. The defense needs merely to introduce a shadow of a doubt, not prove innocence.
It might sound like semantics but it's not. It's beyond REASONABLE doubt.
Not beyond any shadow of a doubt.

And yeah, there are plenty of doubts but how reasonable are they?
That's up to each person looking at the evidence.

Furthermore on that note...

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there has been no actual evidence to discredit it.
That's just your opinion. It's pretty much all circumstantial evidence.
We can all make up our own minds on the credulity of that evidence.

Today, I found out that the gun was actually holstered on GZ's right side rather than in his back waistband which, if true, does cause me to readdress the story over the struggle for the gun. I have always tried to be fair to all parties involved...as if my random opinion amounts for anything. Just stating this as a principle, though.

But even so, I still think GZ's account is hard to believe. And whether I believe him or not, is my own view. You can't tell me that this particular evidence hasn't been discredited any more than you can automatically say a rape victim hasn't been raped because there is no physical evidence of it. In these cases, it all depends on how much we individually believe the witnesses. Right?
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:34 PM   #597
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I wish this thread didn't exist and these stupid celebrity murder trials would stop happening down the road from me haha.

But seriously, so much of it is hearsay. The only thing that I'm convinced of is the fact that Zimmerman acted as a vigilante and facilitated what may or may not have been a murder.

Unless more evidence appears I think you've just got to look at it like that. Smells like some form of manslaughter would be the only convictable charge -- but I'm no lawyer.
I think we can all agree that the commentary generated by this case far exceeded the available facts. We are only half-way through the trial, yet here we continue to comment in a thread that declared a legal conclusion in its title over a year ago. The blogosphere is active and as new facts emerged, the ongoing commentary employs an intellectual game of Twister™ to maintain original conclusions.

We'll see if the verdict (assuming it comes back not guilty) is a result of (1) the prosecution failing to prove the murder charge, or (2) the successful use of the self-defense argument by the defendant.

The prosecutor may have cleared the lower bar of manslaughter (Voluntary manslaughter is intentionally killing another person in the heat of passion and in response to adequate provocation. Involuntary manslaughter is negligently causing the death of another person.), but that would not negate the defendant's ability to raise self-defense as a defense to the crime.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:38 PM   #598
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I wish this thread didn't exist and these stupid celebrity murder trials would stop happening down the road from me haha.
This one is a little beyond the 'pretty girl might have killed someone' variety.

There are some serious and important issues within this trial.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:44 PM   #599
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This one is a little beyond the 'pretty girl might have killed someone' variety.

There are some serious and important issues within this trial.
Yeah and so was Casey Anthony. But not really. This one only gets the attention because it went viral and someone drew a race card. This shit happens all the time in Orlando. Perhaps it doesn't have some movie-like plot to it, but this isn't the one and only case of 'stand your ground' gone awry.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:55 PM   #600
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But it isn't a stand your ground case.
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