Trayvon Martin's murderer George Zimmerman is still a free man

[anitram]

Admittedly I haven't bothered following this case as closely as most of you, but was Zimmerman gainfully employed at the time of this incident? Or was he just doing nothing but playing wannabe cop in his neighbourhood?

 

[AEON]

And his cause for reasonable suspicion is because a teenage boy was wearing a hoodie in the rain?

Well - anyone is allowed to be suspicious of anything.

I reference the clothing as evidence that seems to point that TM had the character of a young man/older teen that desired to be a "gangsta" - and not only did he want to look the part, he wanted to play the part (based on the texts and photos on his phone) - and this is what motivated him to jump the "cracka" Zimmerman - which eventually led to his being shot.

Had TM just told Zimmerman to back off - or had he ignored Zimmerman and went home - there would have been no tragedy. Instead - the evidence supports that he waited for Zimmerman to catch up to him, he jumped him, he broke his nose, and then had him pinned to the ground while continuing the assault. Even though TM's clothing, location, actions led to attracting Zimmerman's attention - it was TM's decision to jump Zimmerman (in a manner which would have brought felony assault charges had both survived the incident) that caused his death.

There is zero evidence that TM was hit by Zimmerman. There is extensive evidence that Zimmerman was hit by TM.

TM had a right to be there that night. He had a right to wear a hoodie. He had a right to wear fake gold teeth. He had a right to be offended for being followed by a "cracka". He had a right to tell Zimmerman to back off. However, he did not have the right to physically assault Zimmerman.

 

[anitram]

Had TM just told Zimmerman to back off - or had he ignored Zimmerman and went home - there would have been no tragedy.

Or, you know, had Zimmerman not gotten out of his vehicle and followed him like the police asked him to.

Nowhere in your post did I see any of this tragedy being attributed to Zimmerman. It was all onus on Martin to do this or that or the other thing. Kind of weird.

 

[AEON]

Or, you know, had Zimmerman not gotten out of his vehicle and followed him like the police asked him to.

Nowhere in your post did I see any of this tragedy being attributed to Zimmerman. It was all onus on Martin to do this or that or the other thing. Kind of weird.

I agree that Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of the car, but he had a legal right to do so. It was unwise - but not criminal.

Martin had a legal right to think Zimmerman was a "cracka". He had a right to verbally confront Zimmerman for following him (again - probably unwise, but not criminal.)

However - the inciting incident, the point of no return, the line in the sand where hypothetical ends and the tragedy begins is when Martin jumped Zimmerman.

Everything up until that point was legally allowed.

Martin became an actual criminal (felony assault) the moment he jumped Zimmerman.

In my mind - there is a huge difference between following someone and reporting to 911 what you see - and felony assault.

 

[anitram]

Again, apologies as I'm not as familiar with the facts - how was it established that TM jumped Zimmerman? Eye witness accounts?

 

[deep]

Admittedly I haven't bothered following this case as closely as most of you, but was Zimmerman gainfully employed at the time of this incident? Or was he just doing nothing but playing wannabe cop in his neighbourhood?

to be honest (to borrow a phase)

any objective examination of this case will show that GZ is a worthless person, as an adult he was mooching off of relatives living at this complex in someone's home, he has a police and public record of being violent and striking others, he was thrown out of a 2 year college and barred from going back, I'd like to know why?
A family relation, on her own volition, witness 9, called the Police Dept and said GZ repeatably molested her over many years, up until the time he was over the age 18. She reported that she asked GZ to meet her at a restaurant, she had her parents there, when the meeting began he just said, 'I'm sorry' and walked out. TM's female friend that Limbaugh made sport of had some justification for her concerns.

TM's record? he got suspended from school for having a plastic bag with some marijuana residue

so evaluating these two individuals, if one wanted to be judgmental,
GZ is trash.


GZ refused to take the stand. A Civil case should be perused where he will have to take the stand and testify. This man is trash and a killer.
All of his cheer-leading fans deserve to have the truth spoon fed to them.

 

[Diemen]

Well - anyone is allowed to be suspicious of anything.

I reference the clothing as evidence that seems to point that TM had the character of a young man/older teen that desired to be a "gangsta" - and not only did he want to look the part, he wanted to play the part (based on the texts and photos on his phone) - and this is what motivated him to jump the "cracka" Zimmerman - which eventually led to his being shot.

Woah. You're making some ugly assumptions about Martin based on some pretty slim evidence. Have you seen a picture of Trayvon from that night? He is hardly dressed like a gangsta, wannabe or not.

Had TM just told Zimmerman to back off - or had he ignored Zimmerman and went home - there would have been no tragedy. Instead - the evidence supports that he waited for Zimmerman to catch up to him, he jumped him, he broke his nose, and then had him pinned to the ground while continuing the assault.

The evidence supports? How do you know Trayvon didn't tell Zimmerman to back off? How do you know that he didn't try to ignore Zimmerman but got increasingly concerned for his safety when the guy wouldn't stop tailing him (something that the evidence, such as it is, doesn't shed any light on)? Oh, that's right, because the only version of events we have is Zimmerman's version, because Trayvon is dead.

Even though TM's clothing, location, actions led to attracting Zimmerman's attention - it was TM's decision to jump Zimmerman (in a manner which would have brought felony assault charges had both survived the incident) that caused his death.

It's Trayvon's fault that he got shot? Lovely.

There is zero evidence that TM was hit by Zimmerman. There is extensive evidence that Zimmerman was hit by TM.

The first person to throw a punch isn't necessarily the one who started the confrontation.

However, he did not have the right to physically assault Zimmerman.

On that we are agreed. But I don't agree with a law that finds Zimmerman has the right to incorrectly profile an innocent kid, tail him on a rainy night, (ignoring police dispatch in the process), and then shoot and kill the kid when the kid gets the better of him in a fight - and then not suffer any legal consequences for that action.

 

[deep]

Again, apologies as I'm not as familiar with the facts - how was it established that TM jumped Zimmerman? Eye witness accounts?

there are very few facts, many things are being reported as facts by people that have bias.
We all have bias and must admit that so the bias can be identified and challenged to try for objectivity.

as for admitted evidence? jesus, some people think it is the same as facts.

 

[AEON]

All of his cheer-leading fans deserve to have the truth spoon fed to them.

Hey Deep,

I don't think Zimmerman has that many "fans" - I just don't think he's guilty of murder in this case.

I am also contending that Martin played a critical part in this tragedy. You simply cannot jump someone in a civil society because you don't like what they're doing. Not only is it illegal - there's no way of predicting how far the fight will escalate. What if Zimmerman was some sort of MMA guru and broke Martin's neck? What if Zimmerman received a concussion and died of a brain hemorrhage? What if Zimmerman had a concealed weapon....oh wait...

You see - there's no way of predicting how a physical confrontation will end. Violence begets more violence more often than not. And in this case - the violence was initiated by Martin.

 

[AEON]

there are very few facts, many things are being reported as facts by people that have bias.
We all have bias and must admit that so the bias can be identified and challenged to try for objectivity.

as for admitted evidence? jesus, some people think it is the same as facts.

True - I think we blurred the line between facts and evidence for the sake of the discussion.

There is no "evidence" that Zimmerman ever struck Martin. There is plenty of "evidence" that Martin struck Zimmerman.

 

[deep]

OJ got the correct verdict in the criminal case, not guilty based on the prosecution and evidence. He did not take the stand, his right. So be it. Some people believe 'justice' was not served. The Goldman and Brown family got a Civil Case where OJ was compelled to take the stand, with preponderance of evidence he was found guilty.

So my question to you. Would you support a Civil Case against GZ so the Martin family can have GZ compelled to take the stand and testify?

 

[AEON]

OJ got the correct verdict in the criminal case, not guilty based on the prosecution and evidence. He did not take the stand, his right. So be it. Some people believe 'justice' was not served. The Goldman and Brown family got a Civil Case where OJ was compelled to take the stand, with preponderance of evidence he was found guilty.

So my question to you. Would you support a Civil Case against GZ so the Martin family can have GZ compelled to take the stand and testify?

I'm not a legal expert - so I'll let our resident lawyers handle this.

From my own - non-lawyer perspective - I've always thought a Civil Case after a jury trial is a bit like double jeopardy, even for OJ Simpson.

 

[deep]

you do realize it is just for damages and not criminal charges, so no double jeopardy at all.
the state can not bring charges again.
If a person was successful in defending against a civil case first, should they have grounds to say the state can not charge and try them criminally?

I think we all agree that if the U S legal system if working properly, people that commit crimes have a real chance of walking away scot-free,

surprising that you think OJ should have walked completely with no repercussions at all.

 

[AEON]

surprising that you think OJ should have walked completely with no repercussions at all.

Don't get me wrong - I think OJ is guilty of murder. But I did agree with the jury - there was reasonable doubt because of the tainted evidence.

 

[AEON]

you do realize it is just for damages and not criminal charges, so no double jeopardy at all.

Sure - different penalties, different system - I get all that. It just seems to me that once someone is acquitted - they're acquitted across the board (unless new evidence comes to light).

Again, this is my non-lawyer opinion. I would just hope that if I was accused falsely of a crime - then acquitted - that I wouldn't have to keep defending myself again and again and again for the same "act".

 

[U2girl]

there is a huge difference between following someone and reporting to 911 what you see

Yes...the difference between life and death.

Zimmerman didn't need to strike any punches. He had a gun. Something that might have
prompted Martin's assault, along with stalking.

 

[BVS]

Had TM just told Zimmerman to back off - or had he ignored Zimmerman and went home - there would have been no tragedy.

That's a rather bold assumption.

Instead - the evidence supports that he waited for Zimmerman to catch up to him, he jumped him, he broke his nose, and then had him pinned to the ground while continuing the assault.

The evidence supports that "he waited for Zimmerman to catch up to him"? Where is this evidence?

However - the inciting incident, the point of no return, the line in the sand where hypothetical ends and the tragedy begins is when Martin jumped Zimmerman.

And how is it that the line in the sand, basically the only piece of the puzzle that's missing, hinges on a known liar and is believed as fact and evidence by so many?

This is honestly the only part of this whole case that really upsets me. I see all these conservatives that preach skepticism when it comes to science but they are all duped to believe that there is somehow evidence that makes this missing puzzle piece absolute in their mind. It seems to me a lot of people are putting a lot down on the word of a known liar, that makes me wonder why

 

[maycocksean]

"cracka"

And we know he said this based on. . . .

Again, apologies as I'm not as familiar with the facts - how was it established that TM jumped Zimmerman? Eye witness accounts?

I've not yet had this question answered to my satisfaction.

 

[AEON]

And we know he said this based on. . . .

Rachel Jeantel

I've not yet had this question answered to my satisfaction.

It seems the prosecution's star witness, Rachel Jeantel, believes "Trayvon hit first" and there was also no bruising/marks on Trayvon (from a fight).

I concede - this is circumstantial. However, it does line up with Zimmerman's story and it is difficult to see how a grown man could get his nose broken, head beaten, and helplessly pinned - without leaving a single mark on the other person - unless he was "jumped". But it is possible I suppose.

What is not really disputed is that TM was winning the fight, and not stopping. As mentioned before - he had at this point crossed the line into felony assault against Zimmerman. There was a man yelling "help" in the background of the 911 calls - it is also difficult to imagine it was anyone other than the man that was bleeding and pinned. You don't cry like that if you are winning the fight.

The other thing I thought was interesting is that when police lied and said they had the whole fight on videotape, Zimmerman seemed relieved and grateful.

I do feel the jury was correct to acquit Zimmerman of the charges he faced - However, I agree with many in this forum that it is ridiculous that Neighborhood Watch can walk around armed. While I do believe in the right to bear arms (non-assault type) to protect your home - I do not think this right extends to walking around the neighborhood. In my opinion - the only people that should be allowed to carry weapons are the military (on-base), law enforcement, and certain security jobs (armed cars, banks, nuclear power plants...etc). I am hopeful this case - if nothing else - helps tighten the laws that allow average citizens to carry concealed weapons.

 

[maycocksean]

Rachel Jeantel

Fair enough. To be honest, I did not watch the trial or follow it very closely. I can see where that might be to my disadvantage now.

 

[BVS]

It seems the prosecution's star witness, Rachel Jeantel, believes "Trayvon hit first" and there was also no bruising/marks on Trayvon (from a fight).

Is this suppose to mean something?

I concede - this is circumstantial. However, it does line up with Zimmerman's story and it is difficult to see how a grown man could get his nose broken, head beaten, and helplessly pinned - without leaving a single mark on the other person - unless he was "jumped". But it is possible I suppose.

It's a shame that speculation and circumstantial evidence carry so much weight in this mess.

 

[nbcrusader]

Is this suppose to mean something?

It's a shame that speculation and circumstantial evidence carry so much weight in this mess.

When prosecution and defense witnesses align on a factual element, what does it say about the speculation that something else happened?

 

[AEON]

It's a shame that speculation and circumstantial evidence carry so much weight in this mess.

Well, true. In this forum we've used speculation to carry on a discussion, and try to guess what likely happened based on the evidence we've seen in the trial and through the information released via the press.

To me - the key is the voice crying out repeatedly "Help!....Help!....Help!"

So what do we know was happening at this moment...

We know for sure that Zimmerman's back was wet, was bleeding on the back of the head, and had a broken nose. An eyewitness also saw TM punching down on Zimmerman "MMA" style. Also - the forensics demonstrated that the bullet went through TM's sweater in a way that could only occur from leaning forward.

Also - the dispatcher said to Zimmerman, "we don't you need you to do that" after the dispatcher heard the wind in the background and asked Zimmerman if he was following the suspect. In other words - Zimmerman did not disregard the dispatcher's advice - instead - was heading back to his vehicle to meet the cops (he told the dispatcher he would meet them at his truck).

 

[Irvine511]

And a gun turned a fistfight into a death.

It's the guns and our stupid, insane gun laws that leave the rest of the world shaking its collective head at us.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Not saying you're wrong or right but it's unfair to jump to that conclusion. I could just as easily say that without the gun someone still would have died. And there's no basis for that, it is something I don't think we will ever know.

 

[Irvine511]

Not saying you're wrong or right but it's unfair to jump to that conclusion. I could just as easily say that without the gun someone still would have died. And there's no basis for that, it is something I don't think we will ever know.

We know an unarmed person was shot to death.

We don't know that TM would have beaten GZ to death. Takes a lot to do so. And perhaps these "MMA" accusations were because GZ was packing and TM was scared.

It's the guns.

 

[BVS]

When prosecution and defense witnesses align on a factual element, what does it say about the speculation that something else happened?

There was alignment on a factual element regarding how this started? Where?

 

[BVS]

Well, true. In this forum we've used speculation to carry on a discussion, and try to guess what likely happened based on the evidence we've seen in the trial and through the information released via the press.

To me - the key is the voice crying out repeatedly "Help!....Help!....Help!"

So what do we know was happening at this moment...

We know for sure that Zimmerman's back was wet, was bleeding on the back of the head, and had a broken nose. An eyewitness also saw TM punching down on Zimmerman "MMA" style. Also - the forensics demonstrated that the bullet went through TM's sweater in a way that could only occur from leaning forward.

No one is disputing this, but none of this tells me how it started.

Also - the dispatcher said to Zimmerman, "we don't you need you to do that" after the dispatcher heard the wind in the background and asked Zimmerman if he was following the suspect. In other words - Zimmerman did not disregard the dispatcher's advice - instead - was heading back to his vehicle to meet the cops (he told the dispatcher he would meet them at his truck).

This seems to contradict what you stated earlier about Martin waiting for Zimmerman to catch up to him???

 

[AEON]

This seems to contradict what you stated earlier about Martin waiting for Zimmerman to catch up to him???

How so? Martin had "disappeared" for several minutes - even though his home was only about 30 seconds from the the place he was last scene. Zimmerman went into the general direction looking for a street sign to give the dispatcher the exact location of where he last saw Martin - when the dispatcher told Zimmerman he shouldn't follow - he turned back around toward his truck to meet the police (which he told the dispatcher he was doing). He was on his way back toward his truck that Martin "appeared" and the fight occurred.

Since he was less than 30 seconds from his home, and Zimmerman was well behind him at this point (and still in the truck) it is obvious Martin decided not to go home, but remain near the "T-section" for several minutes until Zimmerman walked through the area to the street - then came back through the area toward his truck.

Whether Martin was hiding can't be proven - but it's fact based on the phone records of Zimmerman and Martin that Martin remained in the "T-section" area for almost 4 minutes instead of simply going home (if he was truly afraid for his life - he already had Zimmerman beaten on the the path home). This just adds yet more weight the self-defense claim.

 

[deep]

Well - anyone is allowed to be suspicious of anything.

I reference the clothing as evidence that seems to point that TM had the character of a young man/older teen that desired to be a "gangsta" - and not only did he want to look the part, he wanted to play the part (based on the texts and photos on his phone) - and this is what motivated him to jump the "cracka" Zimmerman - which eventually led to his being shot.

I read things in here, and I just throw my hands up and walk away

my opinion is that many of the posts in here, show a clear non-rational bias.
I think it would be pointless to take each one on.
However I have seen you engage in thoughtful, reflective discussion in the past and (like myself ) sometimes change an opinion.


Consider this incident at the onset.

party one is standing in the club house area around 7 pm talking on the phone, listening to an mp3. As a lawful resident in that community he was doing nothing wrong or even suspicious. If a police man drove by, what to you think that police man would have done?

party two is driving out of the complex sees party one in the common area, which every resident is lawfully entitled to be occupying.
GZ based not on behavior, but only appearance judges him a 'fucking punk that always gets away'.

when did TM call GZ a 'cacka' ? Was that based on appearance or behavior?

Only after GZ had stalked him and stared him down for several minutes for no good or legal reason.