iron yuppie
ONE love, blood, life
So that puts this particular law above scrutiny? What exactly is your point?
Trayvon Martin's murderer George Zimmerman is still a free man
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So that puts this particular law above scrutiny? What exactly is your point?
Jive Turkey
ONE love, blood, life
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Taking the first swing completely changes the the situation. In this case, it was never established that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation.
It was the "Even if he thought he would be killed" (or something like that. Can't remember the wording) that I was responding to. If not using it when you think you're about to be killed, when is the appropriate time? He didn't even have to believe he was about to be beaten to death; being beaten to the point of permanent injury was a real danger
If he's not the one who initiated the fight, his inexperience is irrelevant. He apparently didn't want to fight in the first place, so why should he have to take a beating?
ntalwar
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Stand your ground was included in the jury instructions.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
I have to wonder if this is true. If so why are there so many inexperienced vigilantes? Maybe something should be done about neighborhood watch officials? I think his pursuit probably makes this case somewhat rare, I would think, if not then I think we may have a wannabecop problem in this country and we're going to end up with a lot of innocent dead people.
Maybe he shouldn't have been the self appointed neighborhood watch (and packing heat) if he doesn't know how to handle himself in a fight and would freak out and shoot someone who got the better of him in one.
Speaking of packing heat... Zimmerman apparently had a prior record of assault against an officer, and a restraining order from an ex-fiancée - and yet he was still legally allowed to concealed carry?
Nope, gun laws have nothing to do with this...
iron yuppie
ONE love, blood, life
Right, but what if Z did actually initiate the fight? Furthermore, how many fights have absolute clarity in terms of initial aggression? Is the person who initiates physical conflict always the one to blame? Certainly in the absence of witnesses and sometimes even with them, the law seems to be condoning deadly force as a resolution to conflict. That doesn't sit well with me.
And, again, if we look closely at Z's injuries, he was nowhere close to death. I just can't accept the argument that his reaction - to shoot the kid directly in the chest - was commensurate with what he was suffering through. His perception of danger should not be a justification for his actions.
cobl04
45:33
Not sure if this has been posted already, but former poster Onebloodonelife (I always go to type that as 1blo0d, thanks mofo) posted this on Facebook. Similar case, if not even more ridiculous reaction from the white man killing the black man.
Jordan Davis update: Michael Dunn charged with first-degree murder, trial scheduled for September 23
Jordan Davis update: Michael Dunn charged with first-degree murder, trial scheduled for September 23
tim722
The Fly
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Then there's one in Houston where the black woman killed the white man.
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=8815444
OP
OP
deep
Blue Crack Addict
at least somebody knows what time it is
Bruce Springsteen dedicates 'American Skin' to Trayvon Martin at Ireland show on Tuesday | NJ.com
Trayvon died because he is black and Zimmerman walked because he is white.
Bruce Springsteen dedicates 'American Skin' to Trayvon Martin at Ireland show on Tuesday | NJ.com
Trayvon died because he is black and Zimmerman walked because he is white.
AEON
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
It is tragic, emotionally-charged, twitter-ready statements like this that keeps this country divided.
BTW - Zimmerman is as "white" as President Obama.
AEON
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
If you make your legal decisions based on celebrity opinions, you are in a a very sad place.
AEON
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
On the surface - without all the facts - my sympathy is with the black female here. A man getting out of his car and banging on her windows is certainly an aggressive act...
AEON
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Not even close to being a similar case
AEON
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Only because Zimmerman ended the fight with a bullet. Also, you cannot under-estimate a broken nose. I've had my nose broken in a fight - it's horrible and you lose balance, sight, ability...etc.
Martin was a self-proclaimed wanna be gangsta - there is nothing in his advertised persona that screams integrity or restraint. He has already called Zimmerman a "cracka" just moments before the fight - which we now know means "slave overseer with da' whip". If anyone had an ax to grind - it now seems it was Martin.
If a white man had said the N-word on the phone moments before breaking the nose and pinning a black person to the ground - this would be entirely different conversation.
The hypocrisy here is astounding...
OP
OP
deep
Blue Crack Addict
There is so much wrong with what you wrote here.
Do you want to rephrase or retract any of it?
AEON
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Have you read Martin's texts? Have you heard the testimony from his best friend? If so - you obviously heard/read that Martin desired to be a "gangsta"? He even had a pair of fake gold teeth to look the part.
As much as it may pain many people to understand - if you project the image of a "gangsta" (and it is a fact that TM desired this image) then a neighborhood watch captain just might think you are actually the very thing you are pretending to be.
If TM was wearing khakis, North Face jacket, and holding an umbrella - I believe Zimmerman would have ignored him. Sad? Maybe. True? Certainly.
That's the same logic as the "well the lady was wearing a revealing dress, she was kind of asking for it".
While certain dress attire can draw more attention than others, to say that if Martin would have dressed more preppy this would have been avoided is just wrong and sad viewpoint to have.
While certain dress attire can draw more attention than others, to say that if Martin would have dressed more preppy this would have been avoided is just wrong and sad viewpoint to have.
It also strikes me as not that different of an outfit than what a lot of teenage boys of his age would wear, regardless of skin colour. Now that school is out, when I go out for a late evening bike ride, I literally see hordes of young teenage boys in parks and by corner stores, etc in hoodies and it's like 100 degrees outside. I don't immediately think "thugs!" or "criminals!" though I really do want to give them a pair of suspenders for those pants.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
For those who convicted Zimmerman of murder back in March 2012, such facts are irrelevant.
Such a mindset makes the perfect foot soldier of the racial profiteers.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
I should have been clearer. I was referencing long standing legal concepts such as assault, battery, and self defense - stuff that, unfortunately, continues to occur in all corners of the globe.
In this case, the Martin family already settled their claim against the Home Owners Association. That matter addressed the culpability of neighborhood watch officials for their supervision/control over Zimmerman.
Speaking of neighbourhood watch - is there a material difference in what this means in the US versus, say Canada? Honestly, what I'm accustomed to are basically elderly busybodies who sit on their porch most of the day and know the comings and goings of everyone on the street. I'm reminded of one of my cousins who got married some 4 or 5 years ago, and at the wedding, an elderly neighbour (who was part of neighbourhood watch) commented that "it's about time, I've seen that boy climbing over their backyard fence since they were in 11th grade".
I personally find it terrifying that there would be essentially untrained people roaming the streets with guns stuffed down the back of their pants.
I personally find it terrifying that there would be essentially untrained people roaming the streets with guns stuffed down the back of their pants.
AEON
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Our clothing is a form of communication. It can communicate things like modesty, wealth, poverty, religion, favorite sports teams, bands, politics...
I will not claim it is always accurate.
However, I think that by attempting to look like a "gangsta" - TM drew attention - and in this case, suspicion. I am not saying that it means a wanna "gangsta" deserves to be shot on the spot - only that I'm sure many suburban homeowners would feel much comfortable with the black "preppie" versus a white "gangsta" walking between their homes.
EDIT: Also - I'm sure Zimmerman would have reported and followed a white "skinhead" as well.
AEON
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
I don't think this is the norm.
Most neighborhood watches seem to have been replaced with ubiquitous cell phones (everyone can film or call police).
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
After reviewing programs for Los Angeles, my hometown and guidelines from the California Attorney General, the core function of the neighborhood watch is to provide organized information flow to local police.
As you can imagine, once crime does occur, there is far more communication between neighbors. Social media serves this purpose as well (Nextdoor, a geographic focused Facebook, is a great platform).
Sadly, crime becomes a unifying factor among neighbors. Unlike my day growing up in the mid-west where you knew all your neighbors, in California, people tend to limit their neighborly interaction (pull the car into the garage, close the garage door, then get out of the car). It takes the common enemy of crime to get people talking to each other and looking out for each other.
As you can imagine, once crime does occur, there is far more communication between neighbors. Social media serves this purpose as well (Nextdoor, a geographic focused Facebook, is a great platform).
Sadly, crime becomes a unifying factor among neighbors. Unlike my day growing up in the mid-west where you knew all your neighbors, in California, people tend to limit their neighborly interaction (pull the car into the garage, close the garage door, then get out of the car). It takes the common enemy of crime to get people talking to each other and looking out for each other.
cobl04
45:33
Over here it's just a pointless sticker on the outside of someone's house. Literally meaningless and pointless.
I'm going to have to side with BEAL on this one - placing part of the blame on Trayvon's attire seems to me to be exactly like blaming a rape victim for wearing revealing clothing.
There is a picture of Trayvon after the shooting floating around the net, (I'm on my phone and don't want to go through the hassle of finding the link and copying it over), and his clothes looked like normal teenager clothes. Not even all that baggy, really. That a hoodie and baggy pants now equals "gangsta" is completely ridiculous.
I could be wrong, but I think what people are trying to say is that, while his way of dressing is in no way a problem or deserving of death, THIS is what caused Zimmerman to profile him, not his race. I don't think anyone's blaming his clothes for this tragedy.
Except for Geraldo.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
NO ONE is suggesting that Martin "deserved" to be shot because of his hoodie.
It is perfectly reasonable to say that Martin's attire was a factor in causing Zimmerman to leave his house. Obscuring one's identity is a common tactic of a person intent on committing a crime. It created a reasonable suspicion. But, it stops there. The hoodies is not a factor in the subsequent physical assault and shooting.
Covering one's head is also a common tactic of a person who doesn't want to get wet in the rain. Wearing a hoodie is also a common tactic of teens. I think way too much credence is being given to Trayvon's attire as a legitimate source of suspicion for Zimmerman. Zimmerman was already patrolling the streets before he saw Martin. He was looking for trouble and decided Martin was it. And his cause for reasonable suspicion is because a teenage boy was wearing a hoodie in the rain?
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