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Old 03-22-2012, 09:02 AM   #31
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Last night on Anderson Cooper they had a CNN audio guy try to enhance the audio. To me it sounded like coons but I couldn't say with 100 % certainty. if he used even one racial slur he could be charged federally with a hate crime- but I don't see how they'll ever be able to say he did, with certainty. Don't know how much certainty they'd need.

I think this Zimmerman guy is probably a frustrated wannabe cop, wouldn't be surprised if it came out that he tried to be a cop at some point. Why is a neighborhood watch person even carrying a gun? The 911 dispatcher told him not to follow Trayvon, but he did anyway. Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend at the time and the phone records indicate that, but the police didn't even interview her.

This is so depressing, and I can only imagine his trumped up explanation for how and why he felt threatened by Trayvon.

Last night the police chief got a no confidence vote.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:06 AM   #32
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I think it would be pretty ignorant for us to ignore the fact that when people hear about a racially motivated killing of a black man in the news, people think "old white guy." I was simply pointing out that it was not the case, not to make any point other than to inform.
It has been bothering my a bit that he keeps being referred to as a white man in articles. Simply because that seems not to be the case.



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I think this Zimmerman guy is probably a frustrated wannabe cop, wouldn't be surprised if it came out that he tried to be a cop at some point.
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Originally Posted by indra View Post
From what I've read, Trayvon didn't live there all the time -- he was visiting his father who lived there. Still, given it was where his father lived, he was most likely there fairly often. And even if it was the first time he's ever been there, just walking through a neighbourhood shouldn't be automatically suspicious.

It seems Zimmerman was a wannabe cop, who didn't make the cut. Click here to link to an article on that.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:38 AM   #33
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Another reason why Florida is a cesspool of a state.
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:08 PM   #34
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Those 911 calls are chilling. Particularly the one where you can hear Trayvon screaming for help for at least a full minute (and that's only after the 911 call had been answered). Makes it really, really hard for me to believe Zimmerman was "defending himself" if the quite obviously terrified victim is screaming for help for that long.
Well this is another dispute between Trayvon's parents and the police--his parents say the voice is his (ABC reported that his mother ran screaming from the room when she heard that particular call on tape ); the police say it's Zimmerman crying for help (as he claimed he did). One of the neighbors who called 911 told the media she's sure it was a boy she was hearing (though she may have undermined herself a bit by continuing with the not-particularly-logical rationalization that the screams shouldn't have stopped suddenly if they were coming from the shooter). Not knowing either man, I can't say for certain, but I work with young adults for a living and that sure does sound to me like a late adolescent's voice. And yeah, you don't need any expertise at all to hear that he's hysterically afraid.



I'm not sure whether George Zimmerman has a consistent racial self-identification; many people don't, and there's also widespread ambiguity as to whether "Hispanic" is more an ethnicity or more a race. I think the bottom line is simply that he isn't black, and the stereotype of black men as dangerous thugs pervades all of American society and affects the thinking and reactions of everyone, including African-Americans themselves.

There are 21 states with "Stand Your Ground" laws; it's not just Florida.

The statute here (bracketed parts mine):
Quote:
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012 [self-defense against a forcible felony, no duty to retreat], s. 776.013 [self-defense inside one's home], or s. 776.031 [protecting others from forcible felony] is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
On the other hand,
Quote:
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter [776] is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;
or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
Media reports have been highly contradictory as to what exactly the height and weight difference between Martin and Zimmerman was, but in the photos at least, Zimmerman sure looks much heavier and more powerfully built, enough so that it's tough to imagine him "reasonably" perceiving an "imminent danger of death or great bodily harm" from an unarmed Trayvon Martin.

In principle, I understand the reason for the exception at 776.041(2)(a). Say if you, by your own admission, initiate a confrontation by harassing someone, but to your shock and terror he responds extremely disproportionately by tackling you, bashing your head against the ground and trying to choke you, stuff like that. I understand specifying a right to self-defense, up to and including deadly force, in such a situation. However, just as a commonsense matter, if I'm in the position of absolving you of responsibility for that, it seems like first I'd better make damn sure as to A) whether the force used against you was really such as to make you reasonably fear for your life, and B) what exactly it was you did to your assailant first, because perhaps he too had reasonable cause to perceive grave danger, and after all you were the initiator. But clearly this law puts the burden on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant wasn't acting in self-defense, and conveniently for George Zimmerman there are no direct eyewitnesses.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:18 PM   #35
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The Sanford police chief has stepped down today, "temporarily"
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:57 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by bono_212 View Post
It has been bothering my a bit that he keeps being referred to as a white man in articles. Simply because that seems not to be the case.
To clarify, it was confirmed by Zimmerman's father that they are, indeed, a Hispanic family.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:02 PM   #37
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that is bullshit, he may have said it

but it is totally 100% crap
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:09 PM   #38
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Oh, okay.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:23 PM   #39
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It's hard to say 100% if this was based on race.

What I can say with 99.9% certainty is that Zimmerman was an idiot. He was an idiot that seemed to have a complex. He's an idiot that shouldn't have had a gun, and that the Florida law is completely absurd. I hope this incident opens Florida's eyes.

But would this have happened if the kid packing Skittles was hispanic? Would Zimmerman have been as paniced?

Can't say with certainty, my guess probably not.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:45 PM   #40
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To be fair, there were a couple burglaries committed recently in that neighborhood by black men.

That's where my compassion for Zimmerman ends.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:13 PM   #41
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the police say it's Zimmerman crying for help (as he claimed he did).
Well, of course they do. The police don't seem to be too big on investigating "self defense" killings too thoroughly down there.

Quote:
One of the neighbors who called 911 told the media she's sure it was a boy she was hearing (though she may have undermined herself a bit by continuing with the not-particularly-logical rationalization that the screams shouldn't have stopped suddenly if they were coming from the shooter). Not knowing either man, I can't say for certain, but I work with young adults for a living and that sure does sound to me like a late adolescent's voice.
I listened to it again, and it definitely sounds like a teenager's voice to me as well.

Quote:
Media reports have been highly contradictory as to what exactly the height and weight difference between Martin and Zimmerman was, but in the photos at least, Zimmerman sure looks much heavier and more powerfully built, enough so that it's tough to imagine him "reasonably" perceiving an "imminent danger of death or great bodily harm" from an unarmed Trayvon Martin.
The article you linked to in your previous post explains this aspect of it fairly well, I think.

Quote:
In principle, I understand the reason for the exception at 776.041(2)(a). Say if you, by your own admission, initiate a confrontation by harassing someone, but to your shock and terror he responds extremely disproportionately by tackling you, bashing your head against the ground and trying to choke you, stuff like that. I understand specifying a right to self-defense, up to and including deadly force, in such a situation. However, just as a commonsense matter, if I'm in the position of absolving you of responsibility for that, it seems like first I'd better make damn sure as to A) whether the force used against you was really such as to make you reasonably fear for your life, and B) what exactly it was you did to your assailant first, because perhaps he too had reasonable cause to perceive grave danger, and after all you were the initiator. But clearly this law puts the burden on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant wasn't acting in self-defense, and conveniently for George Zimmerman there are no direct eyewitnesses.
Well put. I wonder what the police have to say about the 911 calls that mention seeing a larger man standing over the smaller one who is screaming. To be fair, the distance these 911 callers were from the scene would make it hard to determine who exactly was screaming. Though I find it hard to find a situation where the larger of two men, who was on his feet over the man he had just wrestled to the ground, would be the one screaming instead of the one on the ground. Especially considering Zimmerman was armed.

This whole thing makes my stomach turn.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:41 PM   #42
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Oh, okay.
to clarify my opinion

this guy's name is George Zimmerman, his father is Zimmerman I believe he went through life as a typical white guy, I believe English is his first language and very likely only language. Yes, his mother is Hispanic. Tiger Woods is not known as the first Korean golf superstar. Is Obama just a typical white Kansan?

I have read that he put down Hispanic on school, police? applications, grants, loans etc. Not surprising if that would benefit him.

If his father is Jewish, I think a claim that he can not be racist because he and his father are minorities, would be crap. too.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:45 PM   #43
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to clarify my opinion

this guy's name is George Zimmerman, his father is Zimmerman I believe he went through life as a typical white guy, I believe English is his first language and very likely only language. Yes, his mother is Hispanic. Tiger Woods is not known as the first Korean golf superstar. Is Obama just a typical white Kansan?

I have read that he put down Hispanic on school, police? applications, grants, loans etc. Not surprising if that would benefit him.

If his father is Jewish, I think a claim that he can not be racist because he and his father are minorities, would be crap. too.
I never said he can't be racist because he's a minority. I also never said he was 100 percent Hispanic. I'm not sure what your point is.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:55 PM   #44
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I never said he can't be racist because he's a minority. I also never said he was 100 percent Hispanic. I'm not sure what your point is.
Arguing. Is his point ever anything else?
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:20 PM   #45
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This story makes me so angry.
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