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Old 11-08-2005, 03:02 PM   #106
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The letter from rawstory - Whistleblower Protection

November 8, 2005

Honorable Peter Hoekstra
Chairman
Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
United States House of Representatives
Washington, D.C. 20515


Honorable Pat Roberts
Chairman
Select Committee on Intelligence
United States Senate
Washington, D.C. 20515


Dear Chairman Hoekstra and Chairman Roberts:

We request that you immediately initiate a joint investigation into the possible release of classified information to the media alleging that the United States government may be detaining and interrogating terrorists at undisclosed locations abroad. As you know, if accurate, such an egregious disclosure could have long-term and far-reaching damaging and dangerous consequences, and will imperil our efforts to protect the American people and our homeland from terrorist attacks.

The purpose of your investigation will be to determine the following: was the information provided to the media classified and accurate?; who leaked this information and under what authority?; and, what is the actual and potential damage done to the national security of the United States and our partners in the Global War on Terror? We will consider other changes to this mandate based on your recommendations.

Any information that you obtain on this matter that may implicate possible violations of law should be referred to the Department of Justice for appropriate action.

We expect that you will move expeditiously to complete this inquiry and that you will provide us with periodic updates. We are hopeful that you will be able to accomplish this task in a bipartisan manner given general agreement that intelligence matters should not be politicized. Either way, however, your inquiry shall proceed.

The leaking of classified information by employees of the United States government appears to have increased in recent years, establishing a dangerous trend that, if not addressed swiftly and firmly, likely will worsen. The unauthorized release of classified information is serious and threatens our nation's security. It also puts the lives of many Americans and the security of our nation at risk.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.

Sincerely,

William H. Frist, M.D.

Majority Leader

U.S. Senate


J. Dennis Hastert
Speaker
U.S. House of Representatives
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Old 11-08-2005, 03:15 PM   #107
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Whistle blowers need protection from those that are corrupt, immoral,

Be it lying about phony evidence for war

or exposing torture


when a President lies and says "We do not torture"

the American people deserve to know he is a liar!

Cheney, Frist and these guys would love to imprison and torture John McCain again for standing against their heinous actions.
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Old 11-09-2005, 03:02 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
The letter from rawstory - Whistleblower Protection

November 8, 2005

Honorable Peter Hoekstra
Chairman
Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
United States House of Representatives
Washington, D.C. 20515


Honorable Pat Roberts
Chairman
Select Committee on Intelligence
United States Senate
Washington, D.C. 20515


Dear Chairman Hoekstra and Chairman Roberts:

We request that you immediately initiate a joint investigation into the possible release of classified information to the media alleging that the United States government may be detaining and interrogating terrorists at undisclosed locations abroad. As you know, if accurate, such an egregious disclosure could have long-term and far-reaching damaging and dangerous consequences, and will imperil our efforts to protect the American people and our homeland from terrorist attacks.

...

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.

Sincerely,

William H. Frist, M.D.

Majority Leader

U.S. Senate


J. Dennis Hastert
Speaker
U.S. House of Representatives

Uh, the leak may have been of GOP's own making. This from thinkprogress.org:

"But today, in an off-camera meeting with reporters, Sen. Trent Lott (R-MS) revealed that the leak likely came from a Senator or Senate staffer who attended a GOP-only meeting with Vice President Dick Cheney last week, where the detention centers were discussed. CNN’s Ed Henry has the full report:"
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Old 11-09-2005, 07:37 PM   #109
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Normal why the fuss?

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Old 11-09-2005, 08:51 PM   #110
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Re: why the fuss?

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Fox News, such high standards of journalism.
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Old 11-09-2005, 09:07 PM   #111
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Re: why the fuss?

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


speaks volumes.

this is precisely the problem.
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Old 11-10-2005, 07:54 AM   #112
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this was on Anderson Cooper last night..

How far is too far when questioning suspected terrorists? That's the question tonight. President Bush said this week the U.S. doesn't torture. He said that categorically point-blank, but there are plenty of recent documented cases where American personnel may have done just that.

CNN's Tom Foreman has this shocking look at what really happened in one case when Navy SEALs and the CIA handled a terror suspect.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the chaos of war, the story of the "Iceman" is not surprisingly murky, he was, after all, in the CIA's custody. But from documents, court testimony, and the reporting of the Associated Press, we know this.

Manadel al-Jamadi was captured by Navy SEALs, beaten and taken to prison. The CIA interrogated him, and an hour later, he was dead. His body wound up on ice and American soldiers posed with him.

Seth Hettena of the Associated Press has covered Jamadi's story extensively.

SETH HETTENA, ASSOCIATED PRESS: This was a joint CIA-Special Forces mission.

FOREMAN: The latest issue of The New Yorker backs up Hettena's reporting, that the suspected insurgent leader was grabbed at his home near Baghdad two years ago in a violent fight in the middle of the night. During a military trial over the arrest, the Navy SEALs involved said they kicked and punched Jamadi while he was hooded and handcuffed. Then at a military compound, Hettena says questioning began.

HETTENA: One of the SEALs said that CIA personnel were putting their forearm into Jamadi's chest and pressing really hard up against it.

FOREMAN: Court testimony said that Jamadi, naked from the waist down, was then taken to Abu Ghraib Prison for more questions.

HETTENA: And a chain was attached to his handcuffs to bars in the window above him.

FOREMAN: Hettena says the testimony shows Jamadi could stand, but if he fell, his arms would be wrenched upward behind him, and that's where they were when guards were called 45 minutes later.

HETTENA: He's not responsive. They take off his hood and they realize he's dead, and they put him down on the ground and blood  starts coming out of his mouth and that's basically how al-Jamadi died.

FOREMAN: The military autopsy says Jamadi died of blunt force injuries complicated by restricted breathing from broken ribs and the hood.

DR. STEVEN MILES, CENTER FOR BIOETHICS: It's absolutely crystal clear that he was tortured to death.

FOREMAN: Dr. Steven Miles, with the Center for Bioethics, did not see the body but has reviewed many of the documents in the case, including the autopsy. He says the position of Jamadi's arms would have also caused deadly pressure on his chest.

MILES: Fundamentally what he died of was of suffocating as he hung suspended with his arms behind him.

FOREMAN (on camera): So far, there's been no announcement from the CIA about anyone being held accountable, but the investigations continue into the odd final hours of the "Iceman."

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, there were more accusations against the CIA today. A New York Times article highlighted a classified report issued last year by the CIA's own inspector general which raises concerns the agency's interrogation procedures may violate parts of an international torture ban. The report though does not conclude the CIA uses torture.
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Old 11-10-2005, 09:04 AM   #113
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http://www.usatoday.com/printedition...ture10.art.htm

"Murtha says that to win over public opinion in Iraq, the United States must dispel any notion it is engaging in torture. In his letter to House colleagues, he says the absence of a clear policy against torture “endangers U.S. servicemembers who might be captured.”

McCain, who was tortured by his North Vietnamese captors, argues that abuse does not elicit useful information because “under torture, a detainee will tell his interrogator anything to make the pain stop.”

He rejects a compromise proposed by Cheney to excuse the CIA from his proposed ban. “There can be no exemptions,” he said.

McCain's strategy is to attach the amendment to bills that will be hard for his colleagues or Bush to reject. He tacked it onto a Pentagon spending bill that contains all military funding, including for the war in Iraq. He also attached it to a bill that authorizes Pentagon programs for next year. “We will win sooner or later,” he said. “I will not quit.”
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Old 11-10-2005, 04:56 PM   #114
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Bush is threatening to veto the bill because of McCain's amendment. Let me get this straight: Bush is against torture but is also against an amendment that will "ban cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment of any person in U.S. custody, regardless of location or nationality."

Oh, this president is too complex for me.

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/arti...10072509990023

Also, I hope that amendment has something against the outsourcing ("rendering") of torture and not just be about "in U.S. custody."
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Old 11-10-2005, 06:15 PM   #115
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/....ap/index.html


Frist told reporters Thursday that while he believed illegal activity should not take place at detention centers, he believes the leak itself poses a greater threat to national security and is "not concerned about what goes on" behind the prison walls.

"My concern is with leaks of information that jeopardize your safety and security -- period," Frist said. "That is a legitimate concern."


Frist was asked if that meant he was not concerned about investigating what goes on in detention centers.

"I am not concerned about what goes on and I'm not going to comment about the nature of that," Frist replied.
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Old 11-10-2005, 06:37 PM   #116
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Frist should investigate himself

what a jackass


the Prez has said these prisons do not exist


so it is just a bogus story like libby and cheney got miller to run in the NY times?


now Frist, with top secret clearance, confirms the story, (and that is a crime, too) by his remarks.
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Old 11-10-2005, 06:51 PM   #117
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At least some Repubs have it right...from yesterday's WaPo:

Rep. Christopher Shays (R-Conn.) said investigating the source of the prison article would be acceptable, as long as Congress also investigates the secret prisons themselves.

"If you want to investigate everything and not be selective, that would make sense," he said.

Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) said: "Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. The real story is those jails."

More generally, Republicans suggested it is unwise to pick a fight with the media over an issue that exposes so many political vulnerabilities for their party.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...800764_pf.html
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Old 11-13-2005, 02:42 PM   #118
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Newsweek article by Senator McCain about torture, there are several articles in the new issue

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10019179/site/newsweek/
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Old 11-14-2005, 10:02 AM   #119
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lots of discussion is now focusing on what techniques are considered torture, and which are merely coercive. one such technique that is now undergoing such scrutinty, and VP Cheney desperately wishes to keep this one available for at least the CIA to use, is what is known as waterboarding. it's use is being passionately defended by the Wall Street Journal (who resort to the oft-heard response to *any* sort of criticism in Iraq, "yeah, well, at least it's better than Hussein," as if SH is some sort of gold standard), and some say that this is what they used on Khalid Sheik Mohammad. it is still legal, and rumored to be practiced regularly at GitMo, and, one would assume, at all these secret detention centers in Eastern Europe.

what is it? well, it depends:

[q]This specific water torture, often called the "water cure," admits of several variants:

(a) pumping: filling a stomach with water causes the organs to distend, a sensation compared often with having your organs set on fire from the inside. This was the Tormenta de Toca favored by the Inquisition. The French in Algeria called in the tube or tuyau after the hose they forced into the mouth to fill the organs.

(b) choking - as in sticking a head in a barrel. It is a form of near asphyxiation but it also produces the same burning sensation through all the water a prisoner involuntarily ingests. This is the example illustrated in the Battle of Algiers movie, a technique called the sauccisson or the submarine in Latin America. Prisoners describe their chests swelling to the size of barrels at which point a guard would stomp on the stomach forcing the water to move in the opposite direction.

(c) choking - as in attaching a person to a board and dipping the board into water. This was my understanding of what waterboarding was from the initial reports. The use of a board was stylistically most closely associated with the work of a Nazi political interrogator by the name of Ludwig Ramdor who worked at Ravensbruck camp. Ramdor was tried before the British Military Court Martial at Hamburg (May 1946 to March 1947) on charges for subjecting women to this torture, subjecting another woman to drugs for interrogation, and subjecting a third to starvation and high pressure showers. He was found guilty and executed by the Allies in 1947.

(d) choking - as in forcing someone to lie down, tying them down, then putting a cloth over the mouth, and then choking the prisoner by soaking the cloth. This also forces ingestion of water. It was invented by the Dutch in the East Indies in the 16th century, as a form of torture for English traders. More recently it was common in the American south, especially in police stations, in the 1920s, as documented in the famous Wickersham Report of the American Bar Association (The Report on Lawlessness in Law Enforcement, 1931), compiling instances of police torture throughout the United States.

Perhaps the main thing to remember here is that all these techniques leave few marks; they're clean tortures and so people who are unfamiliar with them are in genuine doubt as to whether there is much pain. In the absence of a bloody wound, who is to say how much pain there was?

http://academic.reed.edu/poli_sci/rejali.html

[/q]
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Old 11-14-2005, 02:03 PM   #120
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I think this section answers the false ticking Nuke theory.

Time - McCain
Those who argue the necessity of some abuses raise an important dilemma as their most compelling rationale: the ticking-time-bomb scenario. What do we do if we capture a terrorist who we have sound reasons to believe possesses specific knowledge of an imminent terrorist attack?

In such an urgent and rare instance, an interrogator might well try extreme measures to extract information that could save lives. Should he do so, and thereby save an American city or prevent another 9/11, authorities and the public would surely take this into account when judging his actions and recognize the extremely dire situation which he confronted. But I don't believe this scenario requires us to write into law an exception to our treaty and moral obligations that would permit cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment. To carve out legal exemptions to this basic principle of human rights risks opening the door to abuse as a matter of course, rather than a standard violated truly in extremis. It is far better to embrace a standard that might be violated in extraordinary circumstances than to lower our standards to accommodate a remote contingency, confusing personnel in the field and sending precisely the wrong message abroad about America's purposes and practices.
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