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Old 11-04-2005, 05:33 PM   #91
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If we place a value on obtaining information about future bad acts, then I think it would be better to outline the limits of the practices employed to obtain this information than to drive it back to the "black ops" hole from which it came.
Absolutely. But what should those limits be, and who should be in a position to have a say in deciding them? What should be the permitted scope, what should be the permitted scale, and what due process for detainees ought to be required?

The whole reason I cited Black Ops to begin with is because I took the implication of the first reference to them in this thread (not mine) to be a dismissal of the legitimacy of any and all criticisms of present policy by insinuating that, since coercive techniques have played *a* role in past undercover operations, therefore anyone who takes a position opposing them in present circumstances is too naive to be capable of formulating a legitimate criticism. I reject this line of thinking totally. I might add that I have family who have served in Special Forces (which I'm very proud of) who share both this rejection and my objection to the Administration's carte blanche approach.
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Old 11-04-2005, 05:43 PM   #92
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Awesome
You bring the popcorn I'll bring the beer.
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Old 11-04-2005, 06:04 PM   #93
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i'm sorry, but you really did miss the whole point of that film. it really is about how wrong Colonel Jessup was to order a Code Red.

remember the end of the film when, you know, Jack Nicholson is arrested? seems like the message was pretty obvious:

[q]Downey: What did we do wrong? We did nothing wrong.

Dawson: Yeah, we did. We were supposed to fight for the people who couldn't fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Willie. [/q]
I am a Jessup fan. Most people who have served know how you can be fucked by someone who does not toe the line. Jessup, at the core is 100% correct that the soldier was a detriment to the unit.

The way Jessup dealt with it was wrong....I am not certain I have had the experience of a Code Red ordered by a high ranking officer. That was what I found unbelievable. Most Code Red's I have witnessed were done by soldiers at the platoon level...it was there way of dealing with soldiers who repeatedly cause problems.

and while I agree with you all about the WRONGNESS of the Code Red handed down in the movie.......

Jessup's basic premise is correct in that we ask our soldiers to put themselves in situations that are not normal. We ask them to do this so that we can sleep at night, safe and sound, and not have to worry.
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Old 11-04-2005, 06:12 PM   #94
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Jessup's basic premise is correct in that we ask our soldiers to put themselves in situations that are not normal. We ask them to do this so that we can sleep at night, safe and sound, and not have to worry.


which is why Santiago should have been transferred off the base.
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Old 11-04-2005, 07:55 PM   #95
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For a sidenote the Israelis have effectively fought terror without going down the road of state sanctioned torture, the courts have made it very clear. I think that for a blueprint on fighting Islamist terror groups the world could learn a lot from Israel.
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:17 PM   #96
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which is why Santiago should have been transferred off the base.
Just out of curiosity....

Is there a reason you cut out where I say he handled it wrong?
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:29 PM   #97
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Just out of curiosity....

Is there a reason you cut out where I say he handled it wrong?


no. why?
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Old 11-05-2005, 03:31 AM   #98
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For a sidenote the Israelis have effectively fought terror without going down the road of state sanctioned torture
Not state sanctioned. But I don´t want to know what the Mossad did... however, apparently we agree on that.
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Old 11-05-2005, 09:09 AM   #99
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Ok, INSANE busy weekend but I will try to stop back in so as not to leave folks hanging....

Meanwhile you all leave me with an image in my head of Harry Ried screaming "I WANT THE TRUTH" and Frist shouting back "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"
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Old 11-07-2005, 10:13 AM   #100
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By DEB RIECHMANN
Associated Press Writer

PANAMA CITY, Panama

President Bush on Monday vigorously defended U.S. interrogation of suspected terrorists after the public disclosure of secret CIA prisoner camps in eastern European countries. "We do not torture," he declared.

"There's an enemy that lurks and plots and plans and wants to hurt America again," Bush said. "So you bet we will aggressively pursue them but we will do so under the law."

Over White House opposition, the Senate has passed legislation banning torture. With Vice President Dick Cheney as the point man, the administration is seeking an exemption for the CIA. It was recently disclosed that the agency maintains a network of prisons in eastern Europe and Asia, where it holds terrorist suspects.

The European Union is investigating the reports, which have not been confirmed by the White House.

"Our country is at war and our government has the obligation to protect the American people," Bush said. "Any activity we conduct is within the law. We do not torture."
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Old 11-07-2005, 11:12 AM   #101
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OK, I guess that settles it.
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Old 11-07-2005, 12:34 PM   #102
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OK, I guess that settles it.

if that were the case, why is he threatening to veto a law that would simply codify what Bush alleges is already the current policy -- the McCain Amendment?

if the US doesn't torture, how, then, do we account for the hundreds and hundreds of documented cases of abuse and torture by U.S. troops?

why, then, the need for the Gonzales memos that dramatically expanded the lee-way given to the military to abuse detainees in order to get intelligence?

the president appears to be defining torture in such a way that no other reasonable person, aside from Cheney, would agree.

what does Bush say to servicemen and women who have come forward, such as Ian Fishback (who's thread was ignored on FYM), and spoken about the commonplace of torture in US prisons both in Iraq and across the world?

i would imagine that Bush is genuinely uninformed on the topic (wouldn't be the first time), or he is lying to us. again.
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Old 11-07-2005, 02:16 PM   #103
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He is totally lying. Unbelievable.
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Old 11-07-2005, 07:40 PM   #104
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This is one of the agents Cheney's trying to protect - disgusting

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle10904.htm
Deadly Interrogation

Can the C.I.A. legally kill a prisoner?

By JANE MAYER

11/07/05 "New Yorker" -- -- At the end of a secluded cul-de-sac, in a fast-growing Virginia suburb favored by employees of the Central Intelligence Agency, is a handsome replica of an old-fashioned farmhouse, with a white-railed front porch. The large back yard has a swimming pool, which, on a recent October afternoon, was neatly covered. In the driveway were two cars, a late-model truck, and an all-terrain vehicle. The sole discordant note was struck by a faded American flag on the porch; instead of fluttering in the autumn breeze, it was folded on a heap of old Christmas ornaments.

The house belongs to Mark Swanner, a forty-six-year-old C.I.A. officer who has performed interrogations and polygraph tests for the agency, which has employed him at least since the nineteen-nineties. (He is not a covert operative.) Two years ago, at Abu Ghraib prison, outside Baghdad, an Iraqi prisoner in Swanner’s custody, Manadel al-Jamadi, died during an interrogation. His head had been covered with a plastic bag, and he was shackled in a crucifixion-like pose that inhibited his ability to breathe; according to forensic pathologists who have examined the case, he asphyxiated. In a subsequent internal investigation, United States government authorities classified Jamadi’s death as a “homicide,” meaning that it resulted from unnatural causes. Swanner has not been charged with a crime and continues to work for the agency.

After September 11th, the Justice Department fashioned secret legal guidelines that appear to indemnify C.I.A. officials who perform aggressive, even violent interrogations outside the United States. Techniques such as waterboarding—the near-drowning of a suspect—have been implicitly authorized by an Administration that feels that such methods may be necessary to win the war on terrorism. (In 2001, Vice-President Dick Cheney, in an interview on “Meet the Press,” said that the government might have to go to “the dark side” in handling terrorist suspects, adding, “It’s going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposal.”) The harsh treatment of Jamadi and other prisoners in C.I.A. custody, however, has inspired an emotional debate in Washington, raising questions about what limits should be placed on agency officials who interrogate foreign terrorist suspects outside U.S. territory.

This fall, in response to the exposure of widespread prisoner abuse at American detention facilities abroad—among them Abu Ghraib; Guantánamo Bay, in Cuba; and Bagram Air Base, in Afghanistan—John McCain, the Republican senator from Arizona, introduced a bill in Congress that would require Americans holding prisoners abroad to follow the same standards of humane treatment required at home by the U.S. Constitution. Prisoners must not be brutalized, the bill states, regardless of their “nationality or physical location.” On October 5th, in a rebuke to President Bush, who strongly opposed McCain’s proposal, the Senate voted 90–9 in favor of it.

Senior Administration officials have led a fierce, and increasingly visible, fight to protect the C.I.A.’s classified interrogation protocol. Late last month, Cheney and Porter Goss, the C.I.A. director, had an unusual forty-five-minute private meeting on Capitol Hill with Senator McCain, who was tortured as a P.O.W. during the Vietnam War. They argued that the C.I.A. sometimes needs the “flexibility” to treat detainees in the war on terrorism in “cruel, inhuman, and degrading” ways. Cheney sought to add an exemption to McCain’s bill, permitting brutal methods when “such operations are vital to the protection of the United States or its citizens from terrorist attack.” A Washington Post editorial decried Cheney’s visit, calling him the “Vice-President for Torture.” In the coming weeks, a conference committee of the House and the Senate will decide whether McCain’s proposal becomes law; three of the nine senators who voted against the measure are on the committee.

The outcome of this wider political debate may play a role in determining the fate of Swanner, whose name has not been publicly disclosed before, and who declined several requests to be interviewed. Passage of the McCain legislation by both Houses of Congress would mean that there is strong political opposition to the abusive treatment of prisoners, and would put increased pressure on the Justice Department to prosecute interrogators like Swanner—who could conceivably be charged with assault, negligent manslaughter, or torture. Swanner’s lawyer, Nina Ginsberg, declined to discuss his case on the record. But he has been under investigation by the Justice Department for more than a year.

Manadel al-Jamadi was captured by Navy SEALs at 2 a.m. on November 4, 2003, after a violent struggle at his house, outside Baghdad. Jamadi savagely fought one of the SEALs before being subdued in his kitchen; during the altercation, his stove fell on them. The C.I.A. had identified him as a “high-value” target, because he had allegedly supplied the explosives used in several atrocities perpetrated by insurgents, including the bombing of the Baghdad headquarters of the International Committee of the Red Cross, in October, 2003. After being removed from his house, Jamadi was manhandled by several of the SEALs, who gave him a black eye and a cut on his face; he was then transferred to C.I.A. custody, for interrogation at Abu Ghraib. According to witnesses, Jamadi was walking and speaking when he arrived at the prison. He was taken to a shower room for interrogation. Some forty-five minutes later, he was dead.

For most of the time that Jamadi was being interrogated at Abu Ghraib, there were only two people in the room with him. One was an Arabic-speaking translator for the C.I.A. working on a private contract, who has been identified in military-court papers only as “Clint C.” He was given immunity against criminal prosecution in exchange for his coöperation. The other person was Mark Swanner.
...
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Old 11-08-2005, 12:02 PM   #105
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not to worry!

the Republican Congressional leadership is on the case, and they won't let the people who leaked the report (!?!?!?!?!?!) go unpunished?

how dare the WP expose how our nation is torturing prisoners!

punish the journalists! jail the leakers! make it safe for the CIA and the military to torutre as they see fit without the annoying eyes of a vigilant press!

[q]GOP LEADERS TO LAUNCH NEW 'LEAK' PROBE; INFO TO WASH POST 'DAMAGED NATIONAL SECURITY'
Tue Nov 08 2005 11:36:31 ET

Sources tell Drudge that early this afternoon House Speaker Hastert and Senate Majority Leader Frist will announce a bicameral investigation into the leak of classified information to the WASHINGTON POST regarding the “black sites” where high value al Qaeda terrorists are being held and interrogated.

MORE

Said one Hill source: “Talk about a leak that damaged national security! How will we ever get our allies to cooperate if they fear that their people will be targeted by al Qaeda.”

According to sources, the WASHINGTON POST story by Dana Priest (Wednesday November 2), revealed highly classified information that has already done significant damage to US efforts in the War on Terror.

Developing...

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash2l.htm

[/q]
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