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Old 11-04-2005, 12:46 AM   #61
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What the fuck do you people think the CIA has been doing for the entire time it has been around? Playing house?

It's all good and fine for the populus to get self righteous, but some group has to do the dirty work. For fucks sake.
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Old 11-04-2005, 12:52 AM   #62
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haha
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Old 11-04-2005, 06:25 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by theblazer
What the fuck do you people think the CIA has been doing for the entire time it has been around? Playing house?

It's all good and fine for the populus to get self righteous, but some group has to do the dirty work. For fucks sake.
They did the dirty work using ex-Nazi's to run the European spy rings in the Cold War, they did the dirty work by using germ warfare information obtained by Unit 731, they did the dirty work in fighting proxy wars all over the world, they did it by killing off communist leaders and socialists, it was backing Mujahadeen to fight the Soviets in the Afganistan and giving them Stinger missiles etc.

It is the darker underside that protects the ideals of any system, it doesn't compromise it as long as nobody know about it
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Old 11-04-2005, 07:10 AM   #64
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Originally posted by Zoomerang96


yeah, keep drinking the kool-aid crusader.

there is NOTHING that will ever make you wake up your eyes to how fucking corrupt your government is and how unbelievably evil they are.

how does torturing prisoners make us CIVILIZED people any better than the terrorists?!!? torture is the most disgusting inhumane thing anyone can ever do. hence - that's why it's called TORTURE.

i honestly feel like i'm going insane when i read comments like this and others that can't even acknowledge that this is horribly evil.

we share the same world??
Exactly!
It boggles the mind.
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:09 AM   #65
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John McCain was on Larry King last night

KING: As a prisoner yourself you've become an outspoken foe of the treatment of prisoners by this country. I think you and Hillary Clinton share this battle that we should not treat anything away from the Geneva Accords and no hidden camps, et cetera. Isn't that -- why -- why should this country, and by the way I think President Bush said today we should never torture anyone, so what's the problem?

MCCAIN: I think the problem is that there are some exceptions being made to the Geneva Conventions and treaties that we entered into, one in the Reagan administration concerning torture, including declaration of rights of a man concerning cruel and inhuman treatment.

And, I understand that there is an urgency sometimes when you capture somebody but it's not about them. It's about us. The United States of America needs to win militarily but we also need to win the hearts and minds of people all over the world and, if we torture or treat in a cruel and inhumane fashion people that we take captive, then we will lose that war because then we won't be any different than they are.

KING: Did you learn a lot -- by the way, you would know this better than anyone, do we learn a lot from torture?

MCCAIN: No, we don't, Larry. If you inflict enough physical pain on someone they'll tell you anything that they want to know to relieve it. It's interesting to me that the Israelis, who deal with acts of terror all the time, their Supreme Court ruled against torture and they don't use that against the prisoners that they take.

In fact, they use a lot of psychological kinds of techniques and so if the Israelis don't have to do it, certainly it seems to me that we don't have to either.

I'm working with the White House. I hope we can get an agreement. I hope we can put this behind us and recognize that our image in the world has been very, very badly tarnished.

Colin Powell wrote a letter when we had a vote which passed 90-9 in the Senate where he felt very strongly that our image has been damaged rather badly and we need to fix it.

KING: And he said so on this show recently backing your measure to ban cruel, inhumane and degrading but the president said the same thing today, so what's the problem?

MCCAIN: I think that there's a definition problem about the treatment of some particularly by the CIA and I'm not exactly sure what is being done but if we just -- there's opposition to this piece of legislation that says we will not inflict cruel, inhumane or cruel or torture on any captive and the procedures for the treatment and interrogation of prisoners will be in the Army Field Manual.

That's a manual that the Army, in a classified section of the Army Field Manual then it seems to me it solves all of our problems as the belief of most human rights organizations.

KING: What do you read into these secret prisoners -- prisons?

MCCAIN: I don't know what to think about it. I didn't know about it until it appeared on the front page of "The Washington Post." We probably need to know more about it. If people are treated humanely there, then that's not a problem. It might be rather expensive I would think but I don't think the symbolism of using a former Soviet Union prison to incarcerate prisoners is very good. But it's more the treatment of prisoners that's the problem not the location.

KING: Senator, I know this seems simple, why don't we put them on trial?

MCCAIN: Well, I think that there has to be some kind of adjudication of their cases, in other words I don't think a terrorist is entitled to the same rights as our citizens to a jury of 12 people of their peers and all of the protections because they are terrorists.

These are bad people but there should be a system of tribunals and judgment of their cases and, look, some of these guys are really bad guys and if we want to keep them in prison for the rest of their lives, it's fine with me but we got to have some kind of adjudication of their cases in order I think to comply with the kinds of standards that we as the United States of America maintain.

KING: Especially for those that may not be as accused guilty.

MCCAIN: Yes.
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:18 AM   #66
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President Carter's comments on Larry King

KING: Whether you agree or disagree, you can't deny the timeliness of this book, "Our Endangered Values" by President Jimmy Carter. For instance, you write, "It's an embarrassing tragedy to see a departure from our nation's historic leadership as a champion of human rights with the abandonment defended legally by our top officials." You're talking about the treatment of prisoners and the like.

Tomorrow night Senator John McCain will be here, take the same position as you do on this.

CARTER: Yes, that's true.

KING: What led to this?

CARTER: Well, I think...

KING: Fear with 9/11 did it right?

CARTER: Well, I think the decision to go into Iraq as a war was made before Bush was elected President George W. Bush, and I think that it was before 9/11 because some of the top officials in his government now decided after the withdrawal of Iraqi forces from Kuwait under George Bush, Sr. that he should have gone all the way to Baghdad and have removed Saddam Hussein from power. So that decision was made by some of them long before George Bush even was elected.

I don't think there's any doubt that lately, as John McCain has pointed out, and as 90 of the 100 Senators have approved that our government has illegally and improperly been torturing prisoners, so John McCain and others are trying to have in the law just now being considered we should not be permitted to torture prisoners. This has been a part of our nation's policy ever since I can possibly -- well for more than 100 years at least.

KING: But we didn't -- we didn't have a 9/11.

CARTER: Well but we had the Second World War, which was a lot more destructive for our people. In fact, my own uncle, Tom Gordy (ph), was captured by the Japanese about two weeks after Pearl Harbor and he was a prisoner for four years. He was tortured severely, only weighed 85 pounds when he came out of prison. He was almost dead.

And after that the Geneva Accords were written, which was approved by and even negotiated by the United States and we agreed that in order to protect our own reputation and in order to prevent our own service people from being tortured if they were captured that we would not torture prisoners who were held by us.

That in a radical way is now being rejected by many people in our government and it's not a unanimous thing even within the Bush administration. There's a big debate going on whether the CIA should be permitted or the Defense Department should be permitted to torture people.

I think it's completely wrong. It's completely damaging to our country and it's never been done before. That's just another one of the principles that bothers me.

KING: And the story today on the front page of "The Washington Post" reporting that the CIA set up covert prison systems nearly four years ago with facilities in Thailand, Afghanistan and Guantanamo, a secret prison system. What do you make of that?

CARTER: I was not surprised. In fact, I covered that in my book because there has been a program that was fairly well known that when we were condemned by members of the Congress for what was going on in Guantanamo, we began to move prisoners out of Guantanamo and those others that are captured in the Mideast and put them in countries where torture is alleged or permitted.

And so this was not a revelation. It was very surprising because it's been a policy. And, as you know, just a few days ago the vice president went to the Congress to try to get key Senators to agree not to put in the McCain Amendment but to let the CIA have permission to torture prisoners.

This has never been done in our country and it violates the reputation of our nation and it also I think makes it possible for our own prisoners to be in danger in the future.
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:24 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by theblazer
What the fuck do you people think the CIA has been doing for the entire time it has been around? Playing house?

It's all good and fine for the populus to get self righteous, but some group has to do the dirty work. For fucks sake.
Well said.

It's nice to look at the world through rose colored glasses, but people need to be out there protecting us even if this is how it's done. Colonel Jessep's speech in A Few Good Men pretty much sums it up -

"You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:27 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
it was backing Mujahadeen to fight the Soviets in the Afganistan and giving them Stinger missiles etc.
Mmm....how'd that work out for us?

I have so much more on this subject to say, and I hate doing a "hit and run" on this topic. But I have no choice--it's a busy day for me.

Love your enemies, and bless those that curse you. Jesus says this is THE centerpiece of the law. Paul says loving one's enemies is THE mark that seperates those who follow Christ from those who do not.

Hence I totally oppose torture, no matter what.

That is not to say I think we should have "revolving door" prisons ala Arafat, or that we do not respond to terror militarily at all. Such arguements are a false dichotomy. Also, there is, as some have pointed out here, the practical matter of the fact that so many CIA guys say that it is not effective. This stands to logic--people will say whatever you want them to say to make the torture stop. Those who are (either directly or by insinuation) defending the use of torture in this thread have been sidestepping this point.

They have some 'splanin to do.
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:39 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by randhail

It's nice to look at the world through rose colored glasses, but people need to be out there protecting us even if this is how it's done
I for one don't happen to think it's looking through rose colored glasses to believe that the US should be adhering to certain standards of human decency. Don't we look like a joke and a bunch of hypocrites if we don't? I think we do

Not to mention torture doesn't work, read what John McCain and others familiar with it say about that.

I don't want the "protection" of people who torture, humiliate, and degrade human beings. Frankly anyone who does that or condones that can stick their "protection" where the sun doesn't shine.
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:54 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling

Paul says loving one's enemies is THE mark that seperates those who follow Christ from those who do not.
Not to get nit picky, because you and I really do agree on the subject of torture (as well as many other things), and I also respect you mentioned you were rushed, but I just want to point out that as a non-Christian myself I have loved and forgiven many an "enemy" (for me that means people who have caused harm to me personally). So I suppose this is directed at the Christians in here to prod them into walking their talk but could be insulting to the non-Christians who live by very high codes of ethics and just plain common sense (i.e., torture is evil). I'm not offended, but just wanted to point that out.
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:57 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by randhail


Well said.

It's nice to look at the world through rose colored glasses, but people need to be out there protecting us even if this is how it's done. Colonel Jessep's speech in A Few Good Men pretty much sums it up -

"You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."


um, and what was the outcome of that movie?

the whole fucking point of AFGM was that freedom means nothing if it's maintenence requires the violation of the very ideals upon which it is founded.

and one could argue that all the CIA has done, as enumerated by A_W, came back to slap us in the face with 3,000 murdered innocents on a very clear morning in September.

we have international rules. if we see to create the credibility and moral authority that will give us legitimacy in the eyes of the world to lead, as we had before the Bushies, then we cannot ignore said rules when they become an inconvenience.

this isn't high and might talk as well.

many, many people in here have pointed out that 1) torture doesn't work, and 2) it makes us less safe.
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:58 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by theblazer
What the fuck do you people think the CIA has been doing for the entire time it has been around? Playing house?

It's all good and fine for the populus to get self righteous, but some group has to do the dirty work. For fucks sake.


to me, this is an anti-patriotic, anti-American statement.
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Old 11-04-2005, 10:37 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

freedom means nothing if it's maintenence requires the violation of the very ideals upon which it is founded.


That really says it all.
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Old 11-04-2005, 11:29 AM   #74
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I doubt there is any room for discussion on this topic. While no one has said, "torture is good" the judgments being levied on those who fail to toe the zero tolerance line is unfortunate, yet not unexpected. We have even seen judgments that, in any other discussion, would not be tolerated by most on this board.

No one likes the idea of torture, but there may be a degree of freedom we have today because someone did some unspeakable acts in our past.
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Old 11-04-2005, 11:38 AM   #75
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Originally posted by nbcrusader

No one likes the idea of torture, but there may be a degree of freedom we have today because someone did some unspeakable acts in our past.
.
No doubt...yet I believe those unspeakable acts were not the only or best way to achieve that degree of freedom and now that these kinds of unspeakable acts have been brought to the world's attention we must not continue to shrug it off as 'that's just the way it has to be sometimes.'
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