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Old 11-03-2005, 12:46 PM   #46
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so the United States of America is now reduced to cynical realpolitik decisions whereby it's okay to smash people's feet with hammers?

and with all this high talk about the human rights abuses and torture chambers being the real reason as to why we took out Saddam Hussein (now that the stated reason, WMDs, has turned out to be a result of faith-based intelligence cherry picking), we turn around and break arms and legs?
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Old 11-03-2005, 01:02 PM   #47
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I am completely unable to understand how anyone with a conscience could justify this. I am completely unable to understand why there isn't unanimous agreement that torture is wrong on every level.
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Old 11-03-2005, 01:24 PM   #48
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Way to take my remarks out of context, nb.
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Old 11-03-2005, 01:35 PM   #49
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Originally posted by yolland
Way to take my remarks out of context, nb.
How?

I simply showed Irvine where I pulled the term "coercive techniques".

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Old 11-03-2005, 01:38 PM   #50
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So in order to fight religous zealots who believe in violence we must become religious zealots who use violence.
Hmmm..interesting.
I've always wondered ow people who claim to be Christians square that up with Jesus.
H Y P O C R I T E S
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Old 11-03-2005, 01:41 PM   #51
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl
I am completely unable to understand how anyone with a conscience could justify this. I am completely unable to understand why there isn't unanimous agreement that torture is wrong on every level.


yes.

in the midst of every post, i start thinking, "am i really typing this?"
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Old 11-03-2005, 01:43 PM   #52
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Originally posted by Iskra
So in order to fight religous zealots who believe in violence we must become religious zealots who use violence.
Hmmm..interesting.
I've always wondered ow people who claim to be Christians square that up with Jesus.
H Y P O C R I T E S
Who is "becoming" a "religious zealot" in your statement?
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Old 11-03-2005, 02:03 PM   #53
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from Bush's address to the U.N. September 21, 2004

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0040921-3.html

"Now we have the historic chance to widen the circle even further, to fight radicalism and terror with justice and dignity, to achieve a true peace, founded on human freedom."

"Terrorists and their allies believe the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the American Bill of Rights, and every charter of liberty ever written, are lies, to be burned and destroyed and forgotten. They believe that dictators should control every mind and tongue in the Middle East and beyond. They believe that suicide and torture and murder are fully justified to serve any goal they declare. And they act on their beliefs."



Can anyone explain to me where the dignity is in torturing our enemy?

Here Bush says terrorists believe that torture is justified to serve any goal they declare. So are we terrorists now or what?
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Old 11-03-2005, 03:49 PM   #54
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Torture is EVIL in any context for any reason.

The methods Vertigo Gal propose become a slippery slope.

The Pope thought GWB was the anti-Christ, I think it's really Cheney.

I'm hate what this Admin. has brought our nation to. Torture has been advocated by the School of the America's for years and they are severely wrong. But never has it been openly advocated by our gov't before.

No one that advocates it can be a true Christian.
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Old 11-03-2005, 03:53 PM   #55
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No one that advocates it can be a true Christian.
I would really like to hear any torture-defending Christian here respond to this.
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Old 11-03-2005, 08:27 PM   #56
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I read this thread last night and didn't reply in it because I was so angry that I was afraid I'd say something that would get me banned.

I'm not sure I'm a whole lot calmer now.

I can't believe some of you are justifying torture. I know it's only a few of you, but that anyone here at all would shrug their shoulders at it is shocking to me.

Are you people really that determined to defend the current U.S. administration that you would ignore your conscience?
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Old 11-03-2005, 08:58 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland


From a purely cynical realpolitik standpoint, I can appreciate the point that Black Ops (by many countries) sometimes entails coercive techniques whether we like it or not
That's all I was trying to say. It's just the way it is, so I'd prefer we'd keep it to holy-book flushing as opposed to smashing people's feet with hammers. If that means I have no conscience, then fine.

Of course it is a slippery slope, which is exactly how we have smashed feet, etc. The only surefire way of preventing that abuse of power is not allowing anything that could be in any way interpreted as torture. But that's not going to happen, it's never been that way and it never will in my opinion. If there was some kind of case that exposed widespread, systematic physical torture, and there was truly strong public outrage, there might be efforts to discourage it from the top down. But, as it is, I don't think most people really care. Watch a news brief on it, and 10 minutes later forget about it.
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Old 11-04-2005, 12:10 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
What is your alternative?

We can all say "Torture is bad - we should not be a part of it". (I know, if one doesn't condemn it strongly enough, one must be a koolaid drinking, propaganda believing, GWB supporting, torture loving right winger - let's avoid that part of the argument).

But you are still faced with problem of Al-Qaeda and jihadists across the globe.

Any proven alternatives you are willing to suggest?
yeah, keep drinking the kool-aid crusader.

there is NOTHING that will ever make you wake up your eyes to how fucking corrupt your government is and how unbelievably evil they are.

how does torturing prisoners make us CIVILIZED people any better than the terrorists?!!? torture is the most disgusting inhumane thing anyone can ever do. hence - that's why it's called TORTURE.

i honestly feel like i'm going insane when i read comments like this and others that can't even acknowledge that this is horribly evil.

we share the same world??
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Old 11-04-2005, 12:12 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's shades
I read this thread last night and didn't reply in it because I was so angry that I was afraid I'd say something that would get me banned.

I'm not sure I'm a whole lot calmer now.

I can't believe some of you are justifying torture. I know it's only a few of you, but that anyone here at all would shrug their shoulders at it is shocking to me.

Are you people really that determined to defend the current U.S. administration that you would ignore your conscience?
there is no reasoning with some people, let them have it.
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Old 11-04-2005, 12:36 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
From a purely cynical realpolitik standpoint, I can appreciate the point that Black Ops (by many countries) sometimes entails coercive techniques whether we like it or not--but moral considerations aside (God forbid), I am dubious whether that analogy can be meaningfully applied to such an (apparently) large-scale, and at best, semi-clandestine operation.
For the record, this is what I ACTUALLY said. Means something pretty different when the second half isn't chopped off (not to mention being preceded by a list of questions addressed to "those who argue that physical and/or psychological torture is permissible under some circumstances"...)
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