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Old 02-04-2008, 07:46 PM   #121
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What a fucking annyoing thread, apart from people playing the hands of Jesus being pro-torture and Jesus wanting people to love religious facists (two things that aren't good) what does it have to do with a: the real world and b: the secular US government.

The CIA abuses it's power and will use torture if given the chance and if not it will outsource, I highly doubt there is ever a way to get around torture in the gaps. If it becomes a question of accountability then not allowing it legally is useful from a PR perspective and when push comes to shove when it does get used then the blood isn't on your hands.

Some of the new technology like those ray guns that stimulate nerve clusters under the skin could inflict intense pain without permanent physical (not to say mental) damage, with things that really leave no trace coming in accountability and oversight aren't just important, they are integral.
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Old 02-04-2008, 07:48 PM   #122
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
What a fucking annyoing thread, apart from people playing the hands of Jesus being pro-torture and Jesus wanting people to love religious facists (two things that aren't good) what does it have to do with a: the real world and b: the secular US government.
I have to agree with you.

And furthermore, anyone who claims they know what Jesus would do - frankly that's the sort of arrogance we could all do without.
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Old 02-04-2008, 07:53 PM   #123
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I think that some Jesus invokers here would claim that Numerberg trails were incorrect too.

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Old 02-04-2008, 07:54 PM   #124
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I think that some Jesus invokers here would claim that Numerberg trails were incorrect too.

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You're something else, db.
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Old 02-04-2008, 07:55 PM   #125
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Diamond, maybe you should stop "thinking" then.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:05 PM   #126
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Originally posted by INDY500
Again, Motive.

Thou shall not kill

Some Christians take this to mean ever.

But most take this to mean thou shall not murder or take innocent life. Those Christians can support governments that seeks justice through capital punishment. They can fight in armies when their home, family or way of life are threatened. And they recognize that cruel things happen in war, things that would never be tolerated otherwise.

Thou shall not kill
Now who's being the "fundamentalist"?
Aside from this ridiculous attempt to justify it:

1. You can't prove they're terrorists.

2. Torture doesn't work.

If you, Diamond, 2618, or anyone else who's pro-torture addresses these, then there'll at least be some substance here.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:06 PM   #127
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The Jesus invokers shouldn't bring him into the argument.

Jesus will never force his will upon mankind; and I find it curious how selectively some invoke Jesus when it's convenient.

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Old 02-04-2008, 08:07 PM   #128
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Address Irvine's point about it not working.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:15 PM   #129
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It has worked-that's where we disagree.

Irvine doesn't like that it isn't a 100% effective, and guess what no methods are 100% effective-that's why it should be left on the table.

It saved lives at least once when used against one terrorist and that makes it worth it.

That said, that every terrorist is different, I would say have it as a last resort.

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Old 02-04-2008, 08:21 PM   #130
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1. You don't know the person you're torturing is even a terrorist, because there's no way to be certain.

2. That's like saying 1 guilty man being imprisoned is worth 100 innocent being imprisoned.

3. It's much more ineffective than you think. Most terrorists don't know enough to give relevant information, as I said earlier.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:23 PM   #131
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Originally posted by diamond
and I find it curious how selectively some invoke Jesus when it's convenient.

dbs


Comedy gold, diamond. When are your show times?
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:26 PM   #132
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Originally posted by diamond
The Jesus invokers shouldn't bring him into the argument.

Jesus will never force his will upon mankind; and I find it curious how selectively some invoke Jesus when it's convenient.

dbs
This is rich coming from you.

Can we make this a sticky? Everyone should read this, and bring it up every time you go all hypocritical on us...
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:31 PM   #133
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Which one of the 3 stooges burped?

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Old 02-04-2008, 08:34 PM   #134
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Ignoring the truth just makes one ignorant.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:34 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


Aside from this ridiculous attempt to justify it:

1. You can't prove they're terrorists.

2. Torture doesn't work.

If you, Diamond, 2618, or anyone else who's pro-torture addresses these, then there'll at least be some substance here.
1: You can accumulate a load of evidence supporting that contention, such as their names being dropped as planners by arrested terrorists like Ramzi Yousef, you can have the intercepts and present that evidence to an independent body that makes the judgement.

2: It does if you do it enough.
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