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Old 02-19-2008, 12:47 AM   #316
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Well, its unfortunate that others that agree with your argument aren't told the same. I'm not hysterical. I feel everyone has a right to an opinion and many on this particular post are basically shouted down when they are in disagreement.
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:48 AM   #317
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Humane-ness? I never said anything about it being humane. However I will take the word of a CIA interrogator over an Al Qaeda operative any day of the week. Oh wait, the only bad people that exist are in Bush's 4th Reich of Amerika! Please do tell me how we stop these people from running planes into our buildings and cutting our citizens heads off! Oh, we open dialog with them! Maybe get the UN involved. Or perhaps bring them before the world court!
That was the only shouting I noticed.

I think Irvine's words hold true.
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:50 AM   #318
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Well, its unfortunate that others that agree with your argument aren't told the same. I'm not hysterical. I feel everyone has a right to an opinion and many on this particular post are basically shouted down when they are in disagreement.
Yes, but every side has an extreme. And since no one has presented that extreme in here you failed by presenting it first...

If we all addressed every issue with such tactics, we'd get no where.
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:51 AM   #319
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I love this thread. I haven't posted on here in a long time but I just don't feel bad that this interrogation method was used. I have tried to see it other ways, but when I saw thousands of my countrymen and woman murdered on 9/11, it all changed for me. I think about all the wives who will never see there husbands again. All the children who will never grow up with a mother or a father, it hardened me. The only thing these people did wrong was wake up and decide to go to work on a Tuesday in September. I never want to see it happen again. And I'm sorry , but if that means we water board some terrorists, I'm okay with it. I believe that it is stark in comparison to seeing Daniel Pearl's head sliced from his body. These people cannot be reasoned with. We could get out of the middle east hand over Israel and it wouldn't be enough! I'm tired of people on this forum beating down anyone with a difference of opinion. Freeing your mind works both ways. I have compassion for those that deserve compassion. I also know that there is a huge difference between what our government has done in Iraq, and what Al Qaeda has done there. We are different. I just think that the whole idea that we have stirred the pot for another attack is ridiculous. Ok, I've got my Asbestos undies on, send in the flames!


and this means that they've already won. they've already achieved their goal on 9-11.

the goal wasn't to kill people. the goal wasn't to achieve a spectacular attack. the goal wasn't a comeuppance for American policy in the Middle East.

the goal was to get us to destroy ourselves -- who we are, what we'll do, and what we won't -- from the inside out.
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:53 AM   #320
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I never want to see it happen again. And I'm sorry , but if that means we water board some terrorists, I'm okay with it.
The huge, gaping hole in your argument: the idea that waterboarding stops terrorist attacks.
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Old 02-19-2008, 08:06 AM   #321
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I just think that the whole idea that we have stirred the pot for another attack is ridiculous.
Then you'd be wrong.
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Old 02-20-2008, 03:51 PM   #322
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Originally posted by Irvine511





the goal was to get us to destroy ourselves -- who we are, what we'll do, and what we won't -- from the inside out.
Do you honestly believe this crap? I'm sorry but the islama facists aren't concerned with our change in ideology or what lines we're willing to cross. They care about killing as many infidels as they can, period. If the shear numbers of dead weren't that important, they could have gotten the message across another way. Thats why they continue to blow up buses and markets in Israel. Its blood and numbers. You don't reason with these animals. You fight dirty and you bring the fight to them. We did not ask for 9/11.
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Old 02-20-2008, 03:54 PM   #323
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Finally Abomb-baby injects some common sense reasoning into this thread.

dbs
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Old 02-20-2008, 03:59 PM   #324
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You two are both incredibly obtuse. I've never seen such a blatantly inept analysis of foreign policy and torture.

These are not stupid people or animals. These are intelligent human beings. Evil? Absolutely. But they're smart. They understand that they're incredibly outnumbered. What Irvine is saying about destroying ourselves is absolutely correct: it's the only way they will make the progress they are looking for. They'll never obtain the manpower to just continue killing people. It has to be an attack on ideology, for them. It always has been an attack on ideology. Why do you think they hate us? Because of our ideology.

And you can't torture because A) you don't know if you're torturing a terrorist or not and you can't prove it definitively and B) because torturing is ineffective.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:10 PM   #325
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Do you honestly believe this crap? I'm sorry but the islama facists aren't concerned with our change in ideology or what lines we're willing to cross. They care about killing as many infidels as they can, period. If the shear numbers of dead weren't that important, they could have gotten the message across another way. Thats why they continue to blow up buses and markets in Israel. Its blood and numbers. You don't reason with these animals. You fight dirty and you bring the fight to them. We did not ask for 9/11.


tell me, how are we bringing the fight to them?

i also think you make a huge mistake equating Hamas with Al-Qaeda and tossing all Muslims -- even radicalized, violent Muslims -- into the same pile. it's just not that simple.

they are not all the same. their goals are not all the same. and the very nature of the 9-11 attacks shows that symbolism was more important than numbers dead. the goal was to attack in such a way that it would provoke America to do things it would not normally do, both internally and externally. and it has certainly succeded in that.

ETA: and what's more, if you want to *help* them murder more Americans, go ahead and make torture legal, make it policy. because men will say ANYTHING to get you to stop. so they cough up what you want to hear. you spend manhours tracking down that ticking time bomb, you race to Los Angeles, you burst into the room and you find ... nothing.

and then the real bomb goes off at a Ravens game in Baltimore.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:32 PM   #326
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Yep, I'm sure if we post a memo that we won't ask tough questions or use cerain techniques, they'll be delivering us flowers in the morning Irvine.

That will solve everything.

Brilliant.

dbs
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:35 PM   #327
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Yep, I'm sure if we post a memo that we won't ask tough questions or use cerain techniques, they'll be delivering us flowers in the morning Irvine.

Do you go out of your way to play dumb?
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:39 PM   #328
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Yep, I'm sure if we post a memo that we won't ask tough questions or use cerain techniques, they'll be delivering us flowers in the morning Irvine.

That will solve everything.

Brilliant.

dbs
I don't know what cerain techniques are but they sound scary. I don't understand why you and so many others only see one extreme or the other. We've got a judicial process. It's not perfect, but it works. Why not put it to good use? Why should we even bother signing these treaties if we're going to break the laws we "agree" to?

Geneva Conventions - torture is illegal
U.S. Constitution - all treaties etc. shall be the law of the land.

Promoting torture is promoting the same sort of lawlessness that these terrorists live under.

Sometimes I think it'd be great if everyone who believed in killing, torturing, etc. could just migrate to their own isolated island and deal with each other. If we can't adhere to our own Constitution, then we are in more trouble than we realize.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:58 PM   #329
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Yep, I'm sure if we post a memo that we won't ask tough questions or use cerain techniques, they'll be delivering us flowers in the morning Irvine.

That will solve everything.

Brilliant.

dbs


oh please.

it's not like "we either torture, or we perform fellatio on them."

this is the kind of thinking that mistakes Afghanistan for Iraq.
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Old 02-20-2008, 05:08 PM   #330
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this is the kind of thinking that mistakes Afghanistan for Iraq.


But they are the same, Sting said so...
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