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Old 02-05-2008, 07:29 PM   #211
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Originally posted by LemonMelon
I can't read their minds and dig down dig into their innermost psyche, but the vast majority here do not seem to weigh the Bible into any of their political opinions, and those that do are regularly taken down a peg.
I don't even know what to say to that.

First of all, even for most Christians (ie. Catholics), the Bible is not the final authority. Second, most of this planet reasonably does not "seem to weigh the Bible into any of their political opinions" because they are not Christian to begin with! Do you think there are no Jews, Buddhists, Hindus here?
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:33 PM   #212
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Quote:
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Do you think there are no Jews, Buddhists, Hindus here?
They don't count anyway.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:34 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


I don't even know what to say to that.

First of all, even for most Christians (ie. Catholics), the Bible is not the final authority. Second, most of this planet reasonably does not "seem to weigh the Bible into any of their political opinions" because they are not Christian to begin with! Do you think there are no Jews,
Buddhists, Hindus here?
Nope, didn't think of that when I first wrote my post. Probably should have. Was a bit hasty there, sorry.

I still maintain that using the Bible to defend your point is essentially worthless on this forum (especially since the majority will not share your faith anyway) and I'm curious of why people continue to do so. That was my original point, anyway.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:35 PM   #214
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Originally posted by LemonMelon


Two things I find very interesting in this thread:

1. The liberals twisting the arms of the religious by throwing their own book back in their face, even though doing so makes very little sense and will accomplish nothing but stir the pot.

You mean like every time the "liberals" discuss something and we get the Bible used as the final authority for secular law?

And since when do conservatives get to be the only ones who are "religious"?
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:37 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon

I still maintain that using the Bible to defend your point is essentially worthless on this forum (especially since the majority will not share your faith anyway) and I'm curious of why people continue to do so. That was my original point, anyway.
I wanted to know how Christians could so whole-heartedly support torture, when it goes against everything Jesus stood for. I think the answers have been interesting.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:37 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


You mean like every time the "liberals" discuss something and we get the Bible used as the final authority for secular law?

And since when do conservatives get to be the only ones who are "religious"?
Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon


Nope, didn't think of that when I first wrote my post. Probably should have. Was a bit hasty there, sorry.

I still maintain that using the Bible to defend your point is essentially worthless on this forum (especially since the majority will not share your faith anyway) and I'm curious of why people continue to do so. That was my original point, anyway.
Claiming that only those who share faith in the same God as me are religious was a ridiculous point, and I'm sorry. But the rest stands.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:41 PM   #217
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Originally posted by martha


I wanted to know how Christians could so whole-heartedly support torture, when it goes against everything Jesus stood for. I think the answers have been interesting.
Interesting, maybe. But there is an element of arm-twisting to it as well. Besides, "whole-heartedly" makes it sound as if they enjoy it or something similarly sadistic.

Keep in mind that I agree with you in this area, but I'm just not sure if that particular debating tactic is entirely productive.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:42 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon

I still maintain that using the Bible to defend your point is essentially worthless on this forum (especially since the majority will not share your faith anyway) and I'm curious of why people continue to do so. That was my original point, anyway.
I actually agree with you 100%.

I have no idea why we're talking about any of this in here. I have no idea why we constantly have to talk about religion when it comes to almost any kind of political discussion. We debate these same issues abroad, outside of the US, without ever resorting to the Bible. If is certainly possible, and frankly it elevates the discourse to something far more intelligent and far less emotional.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:49 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


I actually agree with you 100%.

I have no idea why we're talking about any of this in here. I have no idea why we constantly have to talk about religion when it comes to almost any kind of political discussion. We debate these same issues abroad, outside of the US, without ever resorting to the Bible. If is certainly possible, and frankly it elevates the discourse to something far more intelligent and far less emotional.
"Separation of church and state" is not yet a reality in this country, though we preach it regularly.

I wouldn't think Jesus would torture anyone, I really wouldn't, but it's hard to tell when the entire OT preaches a gospel of "do whatever it takes" in the area of warfare. It just seems to me like people have been trying to guilt the religious into agreeing with them by bringing it up. Please tell me I'm wrong.
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:18 PM   #220
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It's not so much trying to guilt as trying to bring up a bit of hypocrisy in some who were taking up the pro-torture position in this thread. I personally can't find a way to reconcile a faith in Christianity with this topic at hand, and so I brought it up (admittedly not in the most refined way).

Ultimately, I would much rather not have religion enter the dialogue as often as it does here and I do believe that the argument against torture can be quite convincingly made without bringing religion into it (just see Irvine's response to Indy a page back for an eloquent example), but I thought it was an important point to bring up considering that some of the people arguing in favor of torturing are also those who on other issues have essentially argued for turning Christian beliefs into law.
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:21 PM   #221
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Originally posted by Diemen
but I thought it was an important point to bring up considering that some of the people arguing in favor of torturing are also those who on other issues have essentially argued for turning Christian beliefs into law.
Exactly.
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:22 PM   #222
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Originally posted by LemonMelon
But there is an element of arm-twisting to it as well.
As there is in abortion threads and gay marriage threads, but then the shoe is on the other foot and fits just fine.
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:53 PM   #223
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I still haven't seen a legitimate response to the point that you don't know if you're interrogating a terrorist and to the point that it doesn't work.
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Old 02-05-2008, 09:08 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon
I wouldn't think Jesus would torture anyone, I really wouldn't, but it's hard to tell when the entire OT preaches a gospel of "do whatever it takes" in the area of warfare.
In the US at least, and I'm pretty sure internationally as well, the overwhelming majority of rabbis consider torture to be in violation of halakha (Jewish law). I only know of 2 American rabbis who've written halakhic arguments supporting torture as an option, whereas more than 700 have authored responsa against it. All three of the US denominations which have their own rabbinical assemblies (Reconstructionist, Reform and Conservative) have officially ruled that torture is halakhically forbidden, as well.

Not that that's likely to be of much interest from a Christian standpoint on how to read the Bible, since the above decisions are based on Jewish law sourcetexts specifically (i.e., the legal portions of our scriptures + the Talmud), not on narrative scriptural passages. Just sayin'...
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Old 02-05-2008, 09:11 PM   #225
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As Lewis Black said, "The Old Testament's our book."
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