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Old 02-05-2008, 01:33 PM   #196
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If anyone is hasty to torture, then you have the wrong person interogating.

If there are 10 minutes left for a nuclear bomb to detonate, and you have a terrorist before you who you know has the answers and this bomb could kill thousands of innocent men women and children and you've exhausted your interrogation techinques, and haven't used waterbording yet-then I think that would be a useful tool that could be applied at that time.

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Old 02-05-2008, 02:10 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
If anyone is hasty to torture, then you have the wrong person interogating.



and when you have the authorization to torture, then you're guaranteed to get the wrong people torturing.


Quote:
If there are 10 minutes left for a nuclear bomb to detonate, and you have a terrorist before you who you know has the answers and this bomb could kill thousands of innocent men women and children and you've exhausted your interrogation techinques, and haven't used waterbording yet-then I think that would be a useful tool that could be applied at that time.

life isn't like this. there has not been a single instance of some kind of ticking bomb where waterboarding has been used by the US. it has all been to get information, not to ascertain information about any sort of plot that was already in motion and had lives in the balance.

it's already come true. once it's authorized, it's practitioners become lazy.
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:19 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511









life isn't like this. .
We need to have the right interogators, and life can become like this if a certain ppl are in charge.

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Old 02-05-2008, 02:24 PM   #199
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Originally posted by diamond


We need to have the right interogators, and life can become like this if a certain ppl are in charge.



and the way you get the WRONG interrogators is when you authorize torture.

but it seems to me that you're saying that so long as Bush/Romney are in charge, they're going to be "on offense" in the GWOT, and we're never going to have the ticking bomb scenario.

so why, then, would you need to authorize them to torture? by your logic, we should only let Hillary or Obama torture, since their policies will lead us to the ticking time bomb scenario.
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:26 PM   #200
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Originally posted by diamond


and life can become like this if a certain ppl are in charge.

What kind of sense does this make? Life can become like a ticking bomb scenario? Do you read what you post?

Plus your scenario doesn't make any sense, "and you have a terrorist before you who you know has the answers", how do you know he has the answers? If you KNEW he had the answers then you would have the answers.
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:27 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




and the way you get the WRONG interrogators is when you authorize torture.

.
according to you...maybe that bespeaks your own weakness.


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Old 02-05-2008, 02:46 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
If there are 10 minutes left for a nuclear bomb to detonate, and you have a terrorist before you who you know has the answers and this bomb could kill thousands of innocent men women and children and you've exhausted your interrogation techinques, and haven't used waterbording yet-then I think that would be a useful tool that could be applied at that time.
24 didn't contact you to write some scripts during the writer's strike?
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:47 PM   #203
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:01 PM   #204
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1) Who is defining "torture"? Calling every aggressive interrogation technique "torture" as some here do is simply ridiculous. And it smacks less of moral outrage and more of political opposition to everything Bush. Everything Bush, from the Patriot Act, to Gitmo to the NSA to the surge. It's all BAD, BAD, BAD -- it's shredding the constitution, ignoring human rights -- or so we're told.
This is actually pretty weak. A very lazy leap in logic. No one has called every "aggressive iterrogation technique" torture. So I'm really not sure where you get this "as some here do". And your jump that this would somehow be different if it weren't Bush is just ridiculous. Sorry but this is one of your laziest theories.
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

2 ) If a complete ban on torture would be a good thing, wouldn't a complete ban on killing be better? Why is it sometimes justified to go to war, launch missiles or even set entire cities aflame, but "torture," oh no, can't have any of that? How do you draw the line there?
I think this goes along the lines of 2861u2's questioning of prisons and criminals. You still have to defend yourself and you still have to punish those that break the law, but you do it with the intent of trying to uphold basic human rights.

Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

3) I'll say it again, not all "torture" is created equal. Motive. Your moral GPS must be stuck on "relative," or "hate Bush" if you confuse the supervised, restrained albeit tough interrogation of a few high-value detainees suspected of having names, details or other information that could save the lives of American troops or innocent civilians -- with the sadistic murders, forced confessions, intimidation, or cowardly acts of terrorism seen all too from those we seek to....I almost said kill.
But if we can't slap someone around why would we ever think killing them was justified?

This is not condoning the torture of humans. But let's get real. If you can think of no scenario (ticking bomb, kidnapped child, etc) in which you'd never, ever condone force to get vital information out of someone suspected of having it;
If someone has a gun pointed at you and your only choice is to kill, then kill you must, but like I said, hopefully we try even in war to have the least amount of casuallties possible.

Yes there will be times when aggressive interogation will be needed, but like Irvine says if its sanctioned you won't have to wait for those extreme times. If it isn't sanctioned then true thought has to go into the ramifications of such interogation.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:00 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
there has not been a single instance of some kind of ticking bomb where waterboarding has been used by the US. it has all been to get information, not to ascertain information about any sort of plot that was already in motion and had lives in the balance.
CIA director Michael Hayden acknowledged as much to Congress today.
Quote:
Associated Press, Feb. 5

"We used it against these three detainees because of the circumstances at the time," Hayden said. "There was the belief that additional catastrophic attacks against the homeland were inevitable. And we had limited knowledge about al-Qaida and its workings. Those two realities have changed."

Hayden said that Khalid Sheik Mohammed—the purported mastermind of the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States—and Abu Zubayda and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri were subject to the harsh interrogations in 2002 and 2003. Waterboarding is an interrogation technique that critics call torture.

"Waterboarding taken to its extreme, could be death, you could drown someone," [national intelligence director] McConnell acknowledged. He said waterboarding remains a technique in the CIA's arsenal, but it would require the consent of the president and legal approval of the attorney general. "If there was a reason to use such a technique, you would have to make a judgment on the circumstances and the situation regarding the specifics of the event," he said.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:15 PM   #206
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protect me from this "God" you speak of.

this genocidal maniac is obviously not worth anything but fear, certainly not respect or love.


Two things I find very interesting in this thread:

1. The liberals twisting the arms of the religious by throwing their own book back in their face, even though doing so makes very little sense and will accomplish nothing but stir the pot.

2. Those very same religious folks thinking those liberals actually give a shit about what's in their book in the first place. I'm not talking about BVS or Philly, but the majority of atheist liberals on the forum.

Weird discussion here.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:21 PM   #207
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Wait - you've made up your mind that most liberals on this forum are atheist?
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:22 PM   #208
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2. Those very same religious folks thinking those liberals actually give a shit about what's in their book in the first place. I'm not talking about BVS or Philly, but the majority of atheist liberals on the forum.
Can you actually tell me who these atheist liberals on FYM are?

I've been around here for a while and among regular participants I don't even know if I could come up with more than 5. And the most outspoken atheist here is no liberal to begin with.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:26 PM   #209
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Can you actually tell me who these atheist liberals on FYM are?

I've been around here for a while and among regular participants I don't even know if I could come up with more than 5. And the most outspoken atheist here is no liberal to begin with.
I can't read their minds and dig down dig into their innermost psyche, but the vast majority here do not seem to weigh the Bible into any of their political opinions, and those that do are regularly taken down a peg.

Perhaps I mixed up apathy with disbelief. I don't know.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:29 PM   #210
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Oh, and for the record, I am against waterboarding. It's almost impossible for me to reconcile my faith in this area. And like Pfan said, it's impossible to know whether or not you're torturing an innocent man.

I just found the way people were debating this very strange.
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