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Old 11-15-2005, 04:06 PM   #1
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Torture -- thoughts?

Just curious -- this article seems to be a fair and even-handed discussion of the issue currently before the government, written by John McCain (who would certainly know both sides of the story). Would love to know people's thoughts and responses.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10019179/site/newsweek/
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Old 11-15-2005, 04:45 PM   #2
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As soon as you lower your actions and morals to that of the enemy, you become no better than the enemy. It's pretty simple.
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:04 PM   #3
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Hang em by their eyelids and hit em in the balls till they blink...............


Oh, thoughts on torture, silly me, I thought techniques. The above is my treatment for pedophiles.

I agree with BonoVox, plus any information gathered has no validity because of how it was extracted.
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:06 PM   #4
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It's a good article. It still astounds me that it had to be written.
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:07 PM   #5
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plus any information gathered has no validity because of how it was extracted.
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:14 PM   #6
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
John McCain

"The abuse of prisoners harms, not helps, our war effort. In my experience, abuse of prisoners often produces bad intelligence because under torture a person will say anything he thinks his captors want to hear—whether it is true or false—if he believes it will relieve his suffering. I was once physically coerced to provide my enemies with the names of the members of my flight squadron, information that had little if any value to my enemies as actionable intelligence. But I did not refuse, or repeat my insistence that I was required under the Geneva Conventions to provide my captors only with my name, rank and serial number. Instead, I gave them the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line, knowing that providing them false information was sufficient to suspend the abuse."
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:15 PM   #7
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:18 PM   #8
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i can't believe we even have to have this conversation.

i am embarassed by the thought that torture is somehow acceptable.

i used to think that, deep down, the United States (and Western Civilization) were simply better than this. we don't torture because it's wrong, because our societies are founded on respect for the individual, no matter what crimes that individual has or has not committed. they can and should be punished, but we do not degrade everyone by removing the humanity of the criminal.

sadly, it seems that we're not "better" and that we must draw up lines and laws like playpens.
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:41 PM   #9
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points for creativity?

[q]Abuse Included Use of Lions, Iraqis Allege
Ex-Detainees Say Troops Also Used Mock Executions

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, November 15, 2005; Page A06

Two Iraqi men who were arrested in Iraq in 2003 but never charged with crimes say that U.S. troops put them in a cage with lions, pretended to execute them in a firing line and humiliated them during interrogations at multiple detention facilities.

Sherzad Khalid, 35, and Thahe Sabber, 37, say they were brutally beaten over several months at U.S. facilities such as Camp Bucca, Abu Ghraib prison and another detention facility at the Baghdad airport. They said the abuse occurred when they were unable to tell U.S. troops where Saddam Hussein was hiding and did not know about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Both are businessmen who were arrested in a July 17, 2003, raid in Baghdad while Khalid, of Kurdistan, was visiting friends. Both said they were supporters of the U.S. invasion.

The two men are plaintiffs in a lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union and Human Rights First against Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and top military commanders in Iraq. The suit contends that U.S. policies during the war allowed abuse and torture. Both men say that they were tortured and degraded for months before they were released.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...111500059.html

[/q]


i mean, really ... fucking lions?

we really have turned into Ancient Rome.
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:47 PM   #10
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I think that McCain is right on about allowing the actions in the extreme to be weighed up then rather than justified now. Although the attitudes of people in excusing or condemning such actions would be tempered by the events that motivated it.

The question of torture is not about crimes they have or have not commited, the debate is centered on known specific crimes that may yet be done.
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:50 PM   #11
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i mean, really ... fucking lions?

we really have turned into Ancient Rome.
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

The veracity of these claims will be tested.
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Old 11-15-2005, 06:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
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Old 11-15-2005, 06:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The question of torture is not about crimes they have or have not commited, the debate is centered on known specific crimes that may yet be done.
Right. So we should torture those suspected of thought crime.

Fucking brilliant ain't it?
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Old 11-15-2005, 06:03 PM   #14
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okay you win
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Old 11-15-2005, 06:05 PM   #15
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