Torture -- thoughts?

[nathan1977]

Just curious -- this article seems to be a fair and even-handed discussion of the issue currently before the government, written by John McCain (who would certainly know both sides of the story). Would love to know people's thoughts and responses.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10019179/site/newsweek/

 

[BVS]

As soon as you lower your actions and morals to that of the enemy, you become no better than the enemy. It's pretty simple.

 

[trevster2k]

Hang em by their eyelids and hit em in the balls till they blink...............


Oh, thoughts on torture, silly me, I thought techniques. The above is my treatment for pedophiles.

I agree with BonoVox, plus any information gathered has no validity because of how it was extracted.

 

[joyfulgirl]

It's a good article. It still astounds me that it had to be written.

 

[A_Wanderer]

plus any information gathered has no validity because of how it was extracted.

 

[trevster2k]

John McCain

"The abuse of prisoners harms, not helps, our war effort. In my experience, abuse of prisoners often produces bad intelligence because under torture a person will say anything he thinks his captors want to hear—whether it is true or false—if he believes it will relieve his suffering. I was once physically coerced to provide my enemies with the names of the members of my flight squadron, information that had little if any value to my enemies as actionable intelligence. But I did not refuse, or repeat my insistence that I was required under the Geneva Conventions to provide my captors only with my name, rank and serial number. Instead, I gave them the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line, knowing that providing them false information was sufficient to suspend the abuse."

 

[BVS]

 

[Irvine511]

i can't believe we even have to have this conversation.

i am embarassed by the thought that torture is somehow acceptable.

i used to think that, deep down, the United States (and Western Civilization) were simply better than this. we don't torture because it's wrong, because our societies are founded on respect for the individual, no matter what crimes that individual has or has not committed. they can and should be punished, but we do not degrade everyone by removing the humanity of the criminal.

sadly, it seems that we're not "better" and that we must draw up lines and laws like playpens.

 

[Irvine511]

points for creativity?

[q]Abuse Included Use of Lions, Iraqis Allege
Ex-Detainees Say Troops Also Used Mock Executions

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, November 15, 2005; Page A06

Two Iraqi men who were arrested in Iraq in 2003 but never charged with crimes say that U.S. troops put them in a cage with lions, pretended to execute them in a firing line and humiliated them during interrogations at multiple detention facilities.

Sherzad Khalid, 35, and Thahe Sabber, 37, say they were brutally beaten over several months at U.S. facilities such as Camp Bucca, Abu Ghraib prison and another detention facility at the Baghdad airport. They said the abuse occurred when they were unable to tell U.S. troops where Saddam Hussein was hiding and did not know about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Both are businessmen who were arrested in a July 17, 2003, raid in Baghdad while Khalid, of Kurdistan, was visiting friends. Both said they were supporters of the U.S. invasion.

The two men are plaintiffs in a lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union and Human Rights First against Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and top military commanders in Iraq. The suit contends that U.S. policies during the war allowed abuse and torture. Both men say that they were tortured and degraded for months before they were released.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111500059.html

[/q]


i mean, really ... fucking lions?

we really have turned into Ancient Rome.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that McCain is right on about allowing the actions in the extreme to be weighed up then rather than justified now. Although the attitudes of people in excusing or condemning such actions would be tempered by the events that motivated it.

The question of torture is not about crimes they have or have not commited, the debate is centered on known specific crimes that may yet be done.

 

[A_Wanderer]

i mean, really ... fucking lions?

we really have turned into Ancient Rome.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

The veracity of these claims will be tested.

 

[financeguy]

 

[financeguy]

The question of torture is not about crimes they have or have not commited, the debate is centered on known specific crimes that may yet be done.

Right. So we should torture those suspected of thought crime.

Fucking brilliant ain't it?

 

[A_Wanderer]

okay you win

 

[financeguy]

 

[Irvine511]

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

The veracity of these claims will be tested.

indeed it will.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Right. So we should torture those suspected of thought crime.

Fucking brilliant ain't it?

I did not say that.

Torture for crimes done would be a punishment would it not?

Torture for punishment is wrong.

 

[financeguy]

I did not say that.

Torture for crimes done would be a punishment would it not?

Torture for punishment is wrong.

There is really little or no discernable difference between what you appear to be advocating or defending, and someone else advocating the incarceration and torturing of Bush or Cheney because they might once have thought of invading Iran or Syria.

On second thoughts, there is one discernable difference - it is a matter of certainty that Bush and Cheney have the firepower to annihilate Iran or Syria - whether these Al Queada terrorists have the firepower to annihilate Boston, New York, Sydney, London or Paris is a more debatable point. Certain intelligence services assure us that they do, but said intelligence has not particularly proven to be reliable in the recent past.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I am not talking about broad vague general threat justifying any such measure, I am refering to cases where there is an independently established imminant and specific threat where you have the "ticking time bomb terrorist" dillema (which is no doubt supremely rare and I make no claims that torture is justified against any, all or even some alleged terrorists that are held in police custody at the moment).

 

[financeguy]

"ticking time bomb terrorist"

You mean Cheney?