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Old 05-26-2004, 06:12 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Sorry 'bout the pun Sometimes these things just come out.
The Pun was histerical.

Salome....I almost believe that torture does have to have a separate set of rules. I believe this because the torture of a terrorist (Dershowitz's example) is quite different from legalizing drugs, although NBC makes a good point. It is different in my mind because the Terrorist is out to kill innocent people and cause terror. The drug situation is very different in that someone illegally taking drugs is extremely unlikely to cause my death.
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Old 05-26-2004, 06:49 PM   #47
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I do not think torture is justified, either. The situation is that you have suspicion that a big shot, namely Rummy, was able to OK "under the table" torture activities. Make it *compulsory* for someone to be responsible, in plain view, so we'll know who's responsible. Who is the who betrayed my country and committed these morally depraved activities?
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Old 05-27-2004, 05:27 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
It is different in my mind because the Terrorist is out to kill innocent people and cause terror.
yes, but I have a hard time believing that torture will manage to prevent innocent people to be killed

torture would accomplish something if
- a definite plan and preparations for a terrorist act have already been made
- you manage to capture one of the terrorists who has enough info so that you can prevent it from happening
- this terrorist does not have enough info for the others to give up on the plan out of fear that they won't be able to succeed should he crack
- this terrorist will due to torture tell you the truth instead of sending you on a wild goose chase for limmited amount of time you have to prevent the terrorist act to happen (I can't say I'm aware of how a terrorist's mind work, but I highly doubt this will work)

I would say chances are minimum at best that you will achieve anything except for being able to let go of some of your own frustrations for not being able to stop a tragedy from happening


the reason you mention why there is a difference between a terrorists and other people who break the law is the reason why we are so intent on stopping these terrorists
why we are willing to even 'stoop' to torture to prevent them from succeeding in what they plan to do
but when it's doubtful (and at least in my mind it is highly doubtful) that you will succeed in what you set out to achieve due to torture then what is there left?

the other point would be that when the law becomes abstract - and when you are going to treat terrorists different than every other criminal the chance of that happening does exist - then where do you draw the line?
just terrorists?
or perhaps we should also start torturing people involved in pedophile networks if they don't want to co-operate and name everyone involved in the network?
or perhaps it depends on the minimum amount of innocent people who will suffer due to your plans?



even though I can't have the slightest bit of sympathy for any terrorist and they can just rot in hell as far as I am concerned
it just seems to me that we are crossing a moral line here for some very dubious reasons
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Old 05-27-2004, 07:58 AM   #49
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wow....are we debating whether or not to use TORTURE??

sweet jesus help us all

once you legsilate something like this people in lower levels will feel more justified in using it as well. Torture would be epidemic...and not just sleep deprivation.

I feel dirty after reading this thread

thankyou salome and klaus
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Old 05-27-2004, 09:28 AM   #50
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We had the same discussion in Germany about Torture and wether it is acceptable.

In Frankfurt a Policeofficer told a kidnapper that he would be tortured if he wouldn't tell the police where 11-year-old boy is.

You can imagine that the debate about torture was verry emotional and it's still going on, but i'm glad that the high court seems to share my postition about torture:
Absolutely NO, not even as a "last resort" to save human life. Torture and even threatening someone with torture is and will be completely outlawed in in germany.
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Old 05-27-2004, 09:50 AM   #51
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It occurs to how how brilliantly Bono nailed this whole thing..

They say that what you mock
will slowly overtake you
and you become a monster
so the monster will not break you...




sd
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Old 05-27-2004, 10:47 AM   #52
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Maybe I'm just being my maddeningly vague self here. I agree with Klaus and Salome. I do not consider torture "acceptable". I just want to know who else besides seven soldiers is *guilty* of these horrific crimes that have already occurred and they are getting away with it because it was "under the table". Who did this ? Whoever did this, their heads should roll. The issue is responsibility. Who screwed up *big time*?
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Old 05-28-2004, 04:34 AM   #53
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Here is another open letter (dating 7 May 2004) from Irene Khan (ai) to The President George W. Bush, cc Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld
Secretary of State Colin Powell

Open Letter - html version

open letter - pdf version

Quote:
Dear Mr President,

The world is watching as your administration responds to the most recent evidence of torture and degrading treatment of Iraqis at the hands of US personnel. While Amnesty International welcomes official statements that the allegations are being taken seriously, the ultimate proof of this will be in actions not words. In this regard, your government's record in the context of "war on terror" detentions gives cause for concern, as fundamental principles of law and human rights continue to be violated despite the administration's stated commitment to these principles.
And my favourite part of the letter:

Quote:
The US administration has denied access to independent human rights monitors, including Amnesty International, to places of detention. We again recall your statement of 26 June 2003, promising the USA's commitment to eradicating torture, in which you said: "Notorious human rights abusers, including, among others, Burma, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, and Zimbabwe, have long sought to shield their abuses from the eyes of the world by staging elaborate deceptions and denying access to international human rights monitors." We urge you to ensure such access is granted now, to all US detention facilities.
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Old 05-28-2004, 12:40 PM   #54
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It's pretty obvious that *someone* is hiding something. Can you say "cover-up"? That's my concern. I'm pissed.
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