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Old 05-25-2004, 09:13 PM   #31
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Have the geneva Conventions been successful in stopping torture?
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Old 05-26-2004, 09:51 AM   #32
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Dreadsox:
short answer obviousely no:
you can look at Iraq with Mr. Hussein and Iraq after Mr. Hussein

Long answer:
I think the geneva conventions have had a important influence.
Now everyone knew that the international comunity dosn't tolerate torture it's sad that the most powerful country violates them and i think that it will have a influense on future wars (hey they were doing it, why should we behave different).
It would have bin better for the war on terror to support the ICC and the geneva conventions.
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Old 05-26-2004, 09:52 AM   #33
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Sorry 'bout the pun Sometimes these things just come out.

I see your point, Dread, and appreciate the clarification. No, I don't think the Geneva Conventions have been successful in preventing torture. This is because we dispense with them when inconvenient! They're only as effective as we make them. If we had a mechanism in place to hold higher ups *genuinely* accountable (ie, you lose your job if someone under your command breaks the GCs, right on up to the Joint Chiefs and DOD), we'd see it lessen. It would also help if we weren't so willing to look the other way when said HR violators are good trading partners or geostrageticially necessary for whatever reason (Saudi Arabia comes to mind). It would also help if we'd quit trying to block the ICC.

BTW, here are a couple of links for those of us who want to see this stop!

http://amnesty.org
http://amnestyusa.org
http://e4gr.org (Episcopalians for Global Reconciliation--a group I did some organizing for)--no need to be Episcoplaian or even Christian to sign their petition, as they state).



SD
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Old 05-26-2004, 09:59 AM   #34
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Perhaps the problem with the Geneva convention is that it does not properly define torture, it becomes difficult to put any action that is borderline in one category or another. How do we properly distinguish between Intimidation, Abuse, Torture etc. Can there ever be a real way of defining such things. Can HR abusers be held to account if they refuse to comply by international law. It is very stupid to have a world where the real abusers can decide not to go to court isnt it.
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Old 05-26-2004, 10:11 AM   #35
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A_Wanderer:
right, that's why we need that the US gives the international court (ICC) FULL support.
That would be the perfect place to define Intimidation, Abuse and Torture, the perfect place to force people like Mr. Hussein or Mr. Bin Laden to take responsibility for their actions.
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Old 05-26-2004, 10:46 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Have the geneva Conventions been successful in stopping torture?
I still don't really understand it though

are we going to axe every law that keeps getting broken instead of trying to follow upon these laws
because if we do then soon there won't be any law left
or is torture just some kind of exception?
and if so - why?
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Old 05-26-2004, 12:55 PM   #37
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In a way it's the same principle used to justify legalization of drugs - people are going to break the law, let's legalize and impose controls.
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Old 05-26-2004, 03:58 PM   #38
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nbcrusader: well at least the people i talked to who were pro "legalize it" had more interesting points.
-It's a disease and therefore the people who are addicted to drugs should be treated like patients not like criminals
-lots of deaths of the drug-dependend people are because of the hygenic problems of the needles
-because of the crime environment they are in and because of the high costs it's likely that they are becoming criminals to pay their depts to the drug-dealer.

Well not one of these principles are good to justify torture.

And i think ai said allready everything about torture on their website ( www.amnesty.org ) which has to be said.
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Old 05-26-2004, 04:38 PM   #39
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I agree with Klaus that the comparison with legalization of drugs is one with many flaws

it doesn't help me to understand why torture should be treated as an exception to the rule at all
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Old 05-26-2004, 04:52 PM   #40
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I think that rather than making the analogy of legalising drugs, the analogy would be more accurate of tolerating drugs.

- Both torture and drugs are illegal at the moment (law + Geneva Convention)
- Apparently, both are tolerated at the moment by governments
- Both cannot be controlled/restricted by the government at the moment
- Should they be legalised, there would be strict rules attached to them so it can be controlled

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Old 05-26-2004, 05:07 PM   #41
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Popmartijn:
- Both cannot be controlled/restricted by the government at the moment

wrong - Many countries have no problem with restricting torture and also control and enforce these restrictions.

- Should they be legalised, there would be strict rules attached to them so it can be controlled

I'm not sure if i have a lack of phantasy here.. but.. isn't it much easier to control torture when it's 100% forbiden?
if you legalize some torture it seems much more difficult to me to control it.

Rummy & Co decided to tolerate some torture and from my point of view they are just opening pandoras box with that decision
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Old 05-26-2004, 05:19 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
Popmartijn:
- Both cannot be controlled/restricted by the government at the moment

wrong - Many countries have no problem with restricting torture and also control and enforce these restrictions.
Then why is it so difficult to get to the bottom of the situation in Iraq. As you said later Rummy & Co decided to tolerate some torture and from my point of view they are just opening pandoras box with that decision, which is exactly my point.

Quote:
- Should they be legalised, there would be strict rules attached to them so it can be controlled

I'm not sure if i have a lack of phantasy here.. but.. isn't it much easier to control torture when it's 100% forbiden?
if you legalize some torture it seems much more difficult to me to control it.
Here, I'm alluding to comments made earlier in the thread. Make someone (the president/head of state) responsible for the actions. When he knows his position is at stake, I believe control will be much tighter.

BTW, don't get me wrong, I'm against torture. I was merely responding to comments by NBCrusader about the analogy between torture and drugs. If you want to use an analogy, use a correct one.

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Old 05-26-2004, 05:23 PM   #43
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Popmartijn: ok, i got you wrong

I thought you ment it can't be controlled by 0-tolerance that's why we should try it to control it with tolerating some torture..

i think i got your point now and i agree with you
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Old 05-26-2004, 05:42 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn
- Both cannot be controlled/restricted by the government at the moment
Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn
Make someone (the president/head of state) responsible for the actions. When he knows his position is at stake, I believe control will be much tighter.
you can only make someone responsible if he can indeed control/restrict it

or you can control it and therefore there's no reason to tollerate it

or you can't control it and then it doesn't make sense to make anyone responsible


I guess that what they have in common is that in both cases you accept some bad stuff because of the good it generates
which brings us back to the question whether a fair amount of the torture that occurs actually leads to wanted results
when you look at what happened/happens in Iraq I tend to say: hmm
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Old 05-26-2004, 06:00 PM   #45
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Interesting editorial from the Toronto Star.

I don't normally like this columnist, but I do see her point. But I don't agree that anything in Iraq was justifiable.

Quote:
Extraordinary measures undertaken not by army grunts but by professional interrogators can be morally supportable in limited and extraordinary circumstances because, frankly, the innocent deserve more protection than the guilty.

Such circumstances probably did not exist at Abu Ghraib although an argument can be made that striving to thwart bombings and mortar attacks against soldiers meets the threshold but they arguably do with some detainees at Guantanamo and elsewhere in the world where suspected terrorists are being held.

Even more justifiable, and less morally ambiguous to me, is eliciting information by coercive means Terrorism Lite, if you will from captured Al Qaeda leaders who possess gobs of information about the terrorist network and murderous plots already in the works. It must be acceptable to terrorize the terrorists when the tactics employed leave no permanent physical marks and cause no lasting harm whether by sensory deprivation or forcing them into uncomfortable positions for a lengthy period of time or interrupting their sleep patterns.
The rest:

http://www.thestar.ca/NASApp/cs/Cont...st969907621263
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