Torture is acceptable under certain circumstances - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-24-2004, 03:28 AM   #16
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 02:30 PM
you wouldn't prevent the attack that way though
so you'd just relieve your own frustrations
__________________

__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 07:40 AM   #17
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by iacrobat
Salome, the point of the scenario is that all other methods have been is exhausted, deal-making, etc.

What do you do?

The person may tell you crap, but would you be willing to risk that to save the lives of 200 people who are about to die in an explosion?

Yes, torture is not much more than what you describe it as.
How SURE would you have to be, to be deciding on the torture route anyway? Pretty damn sure? As close to 100% sure as possible? I'd guess so anyway.
Anyone who is that sure of their suspect, already knows a shitload. If info cannot be worked out to prevent the worst case scenario like a terrorist attack then you are either an absolute crap-arsed investigator or your leads have brought you to the wrong suspect. No invesitgation goes so far down one path to lead to one person or group getting to enough certainty that torture can be considered, without so many other avenues opening up as well.
__________________

__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 09:47 AM   #18
New Yorker
 
Sherry Darling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,857
Local Time: 09:30 AM
Salome, THANK YOU! I've been waiting for someone to point out that most people, quite naturally, say whatever to get the torture to stop. This is why so many intel experts don't trust intel gotten under tortue. So not only have you broken the Geneva Conventions, and I would argue, compromise the very civilized values you say you're fighting for (which means they've won), you haven't gotten the info you needed to begin with. From the interviews I've read, not much can reply good old-fashioned spying for that, and it apparently takes years of training and developing relationships and contacts for that.

*cue 007 music*

SD
__________________
Sherry Darling is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 11:06 AM   #19
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 01:30 PM
Basically I agree with Sherry and Salome. I think people will say *whatever* to stop torture, and it may not be true. Unfortunately they've been doing this for centuries--make that millenia--and it's always been questionable if these people are always telling the truth. I'm all for saving those 200 lives or whatever that would be foiled by a confession, but how do you know you're getting the confession? Some of these terrorists would rather *die* than spill the beans.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 11:23 AM   #20
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 05:30 AM
Extracting information through torture or other means has been studies extensively. I doubt it is the Hollywood version where immense pain (or threat of pain) brings about an immediate response - this is too simplistic.

More subtle forms are likely used to get answers over time - with responses checked against previous responses. This is compared with responses of other detainees. Many of the techniques (sleep deprivation, disorientation) are designed to hinder a suspect from sticking to a false story.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 02:50 PM   #21
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 08:30 AM
I think the point Derschowitz makes is a valid one. Torture is going to occur no matter what. Laws do not stop torture from happening. The point that I think he makes is we need to establish rules for authorization. Make the President solely responsible or a supreme court justice.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 03:47 PM   #22
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I think the point Derschowitz makes is a valid one. Torture is going to occur no matter what. Laws do not stop torture from happening. The point that I think he makes is we need to establish rules for authorization. Make the President solely responsible or a supreme court justice.
Oh, I do too in that torture is going to happen. I don't agree with the use of it, however. But since it's inevitable, and has existed since the dawn of civilization (oh, the irony!) put the heat right on the President or Supreme Court Justice.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 05:58 PM   #23
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Torture is going to occur no matter what. Laws do not stop torture from happening. The point that I think he makes is we need to establish rules for authorization.
I don't really see the logic of this

many things occur no matter what
and when it's against the law the person responsible should be sentenced accordingly

I don't see why torture would be different from - let's say - gang shootings in this respect
__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 06:03 PM   #24
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 05:30 AM
On the issue of authorization, it should be made from a non-political office (i.e., not President), preferably from a judicial office (similar to search warrants), yet recognizing the context of military/national security interests.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 09:20 AM   #25
New Yorker
 
Sherry Darling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,857
Local Time: 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Salome
I don't really see the logic of this

many things occur no matter what
and when it's against the law the person responsible should be sentenced accordingly

I don't see why torture would be different from - let's say - gang shootings in this respect
Exactly, Salome. Dread, ya know I love ya, but your logic in that one was a bit, well, tortured.

SD
__________________
Sherry Darling is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 10:28 AM   #26
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 02:30 PM
Seems like i replied in the wrong thread so i'm quoting myself:

I don't think torture is acceptable, no matter how noble your ideas are that lead you to torture.
Why?

We should be careful not to give up our constitutional state, our human values and rights in the war against terrorism.
If we do that we've lost the war because we lost everything which was worth fighting for.

From my point of view it's the biggest success from Ossama Bin Laden that the world starts to evaluate his actions on the same scale as the actions of the US government.

We should look back in history to see what's hapening when we categorize people in some who "deserve" a bad treatment and some who deserve human rights.
On a long-term view the only chance for more peace is to live up on our ideals and not on revenge and violence.
__________________
Klaus is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 11:07 AM   #27
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 01:30 PM
Geez, I posted in that thread too Klaus. I don't think torture is acceptable, either. Conceptually, it makes sense to make points about responsibility for it in view of the scandal in Iraq. The current shenanigans in the U.S. government over who knew what and who did what are a consequence of doing this stuff "under the table". The torturers betrayed my country. We want to know who knew what. The ideal is to not have it. But since we unfortunately had it, the question is, who knew it, and who did what? Those are what we call the $64,000 question.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 06:02 PM   #28
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 08:30 AM
My logic tortured...LOL

All I am saying is I agree with the distinguished liberal law professor. Nothing has stopped torture from happening. It should be legislated at the highest level.

And noWHERE did I sy it should be used for revenge or because someone desserves it.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 07:28 PM   #29
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
My logic tortured...LOL

All I am saying is I agree with the distinguished liberal law professor. Nothing has stopped torture from happening. It should be legislated at the highest level.
I think this is a valid argument. Like I said, the ideal is not to have it. But since it exists, and has happened, let's not have it take place "under the table". Who did this? Where does the buck stop? We all want to know. This uncertainty is creating a hell of a mess.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 07:45 PM   #30
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,290
Local Time: 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
All I am saying is I agree with the distinguished liberal law professor. Nothing has stopped torture from happening. It should be legislated at the highest level.
I understand this point too, and find it valid.

But it is symptomatic of the way we, as a society have begun to deal with problems. That is, we don't actually seek to solve problems, we only seek to deal with the consequences of the problems. It just doesn't wash with me.

It's like saying, yes, AIDS is terrible and it's killing a lot of people, so let's legislate everyone getting medication, but nobody's actually looking at prevention or a cure.
__________________

__________________
anitram is online now  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com