Too Pro-Life for Pro-Choicers, Too Pro-Choice for Pro-Lifers (FYM Challenge Spinoff) - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

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Old 02-03-2003, 02:17 PM   #76
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the pill has kept me from pregnancy so far.
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Old 02-03-2003, 03:27 PM   #77
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This'll be a long one.

I consider abortion in 99% of cases morally reprehensible, when you get into rape and the like things get messy and grey though no matter the case abortion is murder. In the case of say a fourteen year old girl who is raped and will likely have sever complications from the pregancy and may die then abortion may be a necessary evil to save a life. Rape in general I'm of the why should the fetus suffer for its father's crime school of thought. In no way will the whole situation be nice. BUt think of it this way. Why add the trauma of an abortion to the trauma of being raped? However I can understand the arguments a long the line of why should a woman give up nine months of her life on top of the initial violation. Again be ing male I cna't pass any judgements or give any answers except that it not a cut a dried thing [i] either way [i].

However such things are fringe cases and should be dealt with seperately and on a case by case basis. In the vast majority of cases an abortion results either from carelessness or failed contraception, not rape. In those cases we have doctors handing out a brutal and horribly invasive and highly traumatic medical proceedure like candy. Heck back 20 years ago (well 21 I suppose) when I was concieved my parents were older (38) so what was the doctor's first suggestion. "Well there could be some deformity so abortion would be a good idea" despite the fac that my parents had been trying for two years to conceive! Even if a human life were not a risk I think this whole system should be called morally reprehensible. Even more so considering the human life factor.

By say 8 weeks or so the preborn have a nervous system and therefore can feel pain. Given the rather nasty details of an abortion (which you don't hear about) the Fetus at this point gets to have a rather painful and unpleasant death, one I don't think we'd wish on any animals. Even if you don't consider the embryo human I don't see how one could turn a blind eye to such an act of cruelty to something that is rather plainly alive.

The effects on the mother have been mentioned by others and are not nice by anyone's books. Again the fetus as human issue aside, how could anyone consider the way in which abortions are haded out by doctors as anything but immoral and irresponsible given the consequences WHICH NEVER GET TOLD.

So even if you don't consider the fetus human I can't see how anyone could consider an abortion a reasonable action.

That said I don't favour making abortion illegal as it woild have some unfortunate side effects nearly as bad as the ones now. One cannot legislate morality. The goal should be to create a society in which abortions are legal but where none are performed.

What I do believe must happen immediately is that doctors MUST be retrained and made to give ALL of the facts and options so that mothers can make a decision and be given the time to make it. Even if you believe abortions (up to the second trimester)are not wrong in any sense I should hope you would agree that they should not be handed out like candy as they are now. An abortion is not like having your appendix out and it is even less like curing an infection. If you have no problem with the way the system is administered now well I have nothing further to say to you on this matter.

In the end the abortion issue is a symptom of greater societal ills. An overall lack of responsiblity and people's inability to think about consequences. Such as the concept that teenagers having sex is an okay thing.

All moral aspects aside I think it is plainly a very bad thing. Too many have their first sexual experiences under pressure, in states of ignorance and before they are emotionally mature enough to handle it. The number of girls I know who have been seriously fucked up by sex in their teens tells me this. The same goes for guys too, except it just doesn't get talked about. Too often sex is bandied about like it were nothing and again morality aside its not. It has massive emotional and psychologial effects that go far beyond the pysical event itself that are no fully understood. Its not just about fun. Sure that's part of it but biologically it is one heck of a lot more. This is further compounded by the extreme health risk to under aged girls as well as the developmental damage. No contraceptive is perfect. It's not worth the risk.

Rather than bandying abortion as a solution and saying teens will be teens we need to look at the much larger problems.

Well i've talked more than enough so I just let that one example sit where it is. My point is just that Abortion is a symptom of much larger scoietal issues that go a lot further than sex alone. We have a long way to go as a race and I think the hihgly imperfect nature of this proceedure and its implimentation should show that.

one last thing adressing Melon. I think anyone who is pro-life and supports capital punishment is cracked. The two are contradictory to the core.
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Old 02-03-2003, 03:35 PM   #78
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i read somewhere that having an abortion is about as signifcant as killing a fly.

at about that time, i lost hope in the human race.
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Old 02-03-2003, 06:20 PM   #79
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Just some of it
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Old 02-03-2003, 06:30 PM   #80
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Re: Re: wish i read this over the weekend..(i h

Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
?

And Gabriel, I know you mean well but your baby was WANTED so of course you were going to be excited to hear the ultrasound. How would you feel if (God forbid) your own wife were raped and got pregnant? Can you honestly say you could stand to have that baby inside her and would listen happily to the ultrasound? What if your daughter were raped and she were only 12 or 14? Girls go through puberty earlier and earlier nowadays...would you put her through that? (this is a question for everyone really).

I've quite a simple answer that question actually. As this type of situation represents less than 1% of the reason why most women opt for an abortion, I feel thusly: why should the baby pay for the sick error of the rapist?

Rather than kill the baby, I would KILL THE RAPIST. I'm generally a pacifist but when it comes to my loved ones being raped or abused I would have no mercy. The baby could grow up and be loved, there is no reason to kill it. I would then do everything I could to make sure the baby was cared for.

Many men take care of children that their wives bring to term when they are not their own for reasons such as they are impotent, or maybe their wife cheated on them and they forgive her. Many others (my step dad included) take care of a woman's children and love them as their own even when they are not their obligation.

I think I could find a way to overlook my pride and find love for a child that is not mine, honestly I do.
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Old 02-03-2003, 06:36 PM   #81
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wink Re: Re: Re: wish i read this over the weekend..(i h

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Rather than kill the baby, I would KILL THE RAPIST.
Now you're sounding like a pro-lifer!



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Old 02-03-2003, 06:44 PM   #82
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Re: Re: Re: Re: wish i read this over the weekend..(i h

Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Now you're sounding like a pro-lifer!



Melon
Yes, I realize to some this may put me in the catagory of one of those guys that runs around sniping at abortion doctors...sortof a conondrum really...

But I've already made up my mind about that, pregnancy or no pregnancy. Anyone touches my child, they better fucking pray the law gets to them before I do TRUST ME.
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Old 02-03-2003, 07:59 PM   #83
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Re: Re: wish i read this over the weekend..(i h

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Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
Olive, (with all due respect ) I think this is a very idealistic and beautiful way of looking at things, and you may be right....but I really don't think that is human nature at all. Do you mean to tell me that if you were raped, and you had a boy, especially one that looked like the rapist that you wouldn't have horrible flashbacks?
I definitely don't think it would be easy. I think recovering from a rape is hard enough, never mind coming to terms with being pregnant. but we never stop to think that perhaps something good could come of such an evil situation. It's too bad b/c time puts pressure on the woman to make a decision (keep or not keep the baby/fear/hatred) and it seems easier to not keep it when she is recovering from such a trama..... but yeah, it is idealistic to think of the child turning into a blessing. But most things that work out in a good way may have seemed idealistic thinking before it happened.
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Old 02-03-2003, 08:03 PM   #84
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Well, I can certainly understand why you would feel that way Gabriel...

Although there is no excuse for pro lifers to harm the abortion doctors, they are just doing their jobs!

I think all rapists and child molesters should be castrated automatically. And I wouldn't feel too sorry for them if it was without an anaesthetic!
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Old 02-03-2003, 08:26 PM   #85
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Re: Re: wish i read this over the weekend..(i h

Rapists and molesters should be thrown in a tiny jail cell for the rest of their lives. They can rot there, for all I care.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
Olive, (with all due respect ) I think this is a very idealistic and beautiful way of looking at things, and you may be right....but I really don't think that is human nature at all. Do you mean to tell me that if you were raped, and you had a boy, especially one that looked like the rapist that you wouldn't have horrible flashbacks?

And Gabriel, I know you mean well but your baby was WANTED so of course you were going to be excited to hear the ultrasound. How would you feel if (God forbid) your own wife were raped and got pregnant? Can you honestly say you could stand to have that baby inside her and would listen happily to the ultrasound? What if your daughter were raped and she were only 12 or 14? Girls go through puberty earlier and earlier nowadays...would you put her through that? (this is a question for everyone really).

And what if the girl/woman is pregnant as a result of incest? Everyone knows what happens with inbreeding. That is not only unfair to the mother but to the child too.

I am not at all saying that abortion is great. I do not think it should be used as fallback from faulty birth control, and I also agree with BLS about the fetus being an innocent life form. I think any loss of life, whether it be the POTENTIAL of life in a fetus, or an animal or a person is tragic. But when it comes to rape, incest or the health and safety of the mother, I think the living breathing mother has to take precedence over the collection of cells that is an early pregnancy (first few weeks). It is really much easier to be a holier than thou armchair philosophiser (for all of us - not singling anyone out) than to actually live in the shoes of some of these women.

I also agree with Olive - If men were bearing the children, it would be a different story!

Exactly.

Some women may be able to carry out their pregnancy and have a kid and be perfectly fine despite the fact that it was conceived out of rape.

But others won't be able to handle that-some will have terrible flashbacks and it would be painful.

Like you said-none of us here, as far as I know, have even been in the shoes of the women who have abortions-who are we to be judging them? They have their reasons-while we may not understand or agree with those reasons, that's their business to deal with, not ours.

Pro-lifers are so quick to condemn the women having abortions-these women don't need to be hated, they need support and understanding and need to know there's someone there for them-it's not like this is an easy thing to do, not like they're cold-hearted people (well, most of them aren't, anyway).

And Khanada's right-men are sitting here weighing in-easy for them to say, they aren't the ones who have to go through 9 months of a pregnancy.

Only when men are able to carry babies would they understand things better.

Not saying they can't voice their opinions, but they have no idea what it's like, nor will they ever know what it's like, to be pregnant.

Angela
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Old 02-03-2003, 08:28 PM   #86
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Quote:
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I think all rapists and child molesters should be castrated automatically. And I wouldn't feel too sorry for them if it was without an anaesthetic!
Hear hear!

THAT much we can definately agree on!

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Old 02-03-2003, 09:02 PM   #87
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Re: Re: Re: wish i read this over the weekend..(i h

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Like you said-none of us here, as far as I know, have even been in the shoes of the women who have abortions-who are we to be judging them? They have their reasons-while we may not understand or agree with those reasons, that's their business to deal with, not ours.

Pro-lifers are so quick to condemn the women having abortions-these women don't need to be hated, they need support and understanding and need to know there's someone there for them-it's not like this is an easy thing to do, not like they're cold-hearted people (well, most of them aren't, anyway).

And Khanada's right-men are sitting here weighing in-easy for them to say, they aren't the ones who have to go through 9 months of a pregnancy.

Only when men are able to carry babies would they understand things better.

Not saying they can't voice their opinions, but they have no idea what it's like, nor will they ever know what it's like, to be pregnant.

Angela
Must say I agree with your points. You sure as heel wont see me marching infront of an abortion clinic. Asside from being judgemental (breaking an express command by our Lord there people) such things are only counter productive. You can probably count the number of women who didn't have abortions because of those protests on one hand. If someone I knew was thinking about an abortion I'd talk toher one on one, make sure she knew the facts, listen to her situation, and if she were on her own offer any help I could give. And if she still went for it I'd stay with her because in the aftermath of what she is about to do she's gonna need some help some time. The best way to stop abortions is to just be a Christian (I'm adressing the Christian pro-lifers here - if you're not a Christian do the same thing). You'll change a heck of a lot more hearts by love than with hate. I'd still be deeply saddened and I'd have to say somewhat angry but hey chewing someone out doesn't accomplish anything.
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Old 02-10-2003, 09:48 PM   #88
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I have a huge problem with both these labels. Pro-life and Pro-choice are nothing but slogans meant to put the other side down. If you are for abortion you are against life! If you are against it you are against choice! This is garbage. How many pro-life are for the death penalty and euthanasia, or war? How many pro-choice oppose other choices, and would deny rights to others, like gun ownership, tobacco use, or even the decision of wearing a seat belt in your own vehicle? So I say dispense with the crap and get down to what you REALLY want to say!

I think too much is made of the rape/incest/threat to mother's life/deformity issue. I think even if abortion were illegal there would be exceptions for those. So that leaves the 98% or so abortions performed on healthy women getting rid of healthy kids for such shallow reasons as 'my boyfriend will be mad' or 'I want to buy more neat stuff and get a better job first.' Millions of people have grown up in less than perfect situations with little money and end up just fine. If everybody waited until their life was perfect before having a child, the human race would die out in a hurry. I'd say most of us would never have been born if there was always one more better job, one more cool vacation, one more fancy car for everyone's parents to get before they 'burden' themselves with a baby. Besides, if you don't want to damn kid, put it up for adoption. College papers are full of ads from begging childless couples.

The bottom line to me is, I just don't believe someone's selfish 'choice' takes precedent over a life. I don't give a flying fuck what somebody 'chooses' to do with her life instead of having the child, it's still killing and that's wrong. Of course, no one ever wants to hear the details of the destruction of the child's body, but that doesn't mean it's not there. I also think there should be no argument over the parental consent thing. If you get sick, break your leg or get in a car wreck, they have to have your parents' consent, so why not abortion? Because the parents might 'get mad?' Would they not be mad over the wrecked car or breaking your leg at your friend's house jumping off the roof playing Jackass? It just doesn't make sense!

As a girl, I this is what gets me: With all the birth control methods and info out there today, besides the fact that there are only about 3 days a month you're fertile, there are far too many abortions. If it were limited to extreme and tragic situations, maybe some would be more careful and stop using it as birth control or an easy out. I'm sorry, but I personally know girls who have done this. I just get so sick of it being justified because people want to do it anyway and not feel guilty.
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