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Old 02-03-2003, 03:05 AM   #61
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Originally posted by bonoman
herer in canada you can get the pill and dont even have to give names or have a parent constent (if under 18). I cant believe that the US gov't doesnt have that installed in your country.
heh, believe it. i really hate it, as i'm trying to do my own part as a responsible citizen and take care of my own body, meaning i'll try my best to not get knocked up, then expect the government to foot my bill. next thing i know, insurance companies will stop paying for our annual exams and mammograms!
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Old 02-03-2003, 03:06 AM   #62
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That is a contradiction in law then bonoman if your laws on abortion are similar to the US. As it stands, the US as a result of RoevWade, dont see it as manslaughter. Actually, from a legal standpoint, how does that work in the US? A woman can abort with the support of the law, but what if she is involved in an accident? Can a negligent driver for example, be charged for manslaughter by the courts and subsequently sued by this woman?
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Old 02-03-2003, 08:29 AM   #63
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
That is a contradiction in law then bonoman if your laws on abortion are similar to the US. As it stands, the US as a result of RoevWade, dont see it as manslaughter. Actually, from a legal standpoint, how does that work in the US? A woman can abort with the support of the law, but what if she is involved in an accident? Can a negligent driver for example, be charged for manslaughter by the courts and subsequently sued by this woman?

1. Who said the current abortion laws made any SENSE????!?!

2. While you may have strong feelings about capital punishment, and I myself have serious doubts about it as an effective deterrent, the comparison between ending a guilty convicted murderers life (which has precedent in the bible) and murdering an innocent baby, that just makes me sick.

Again, look at a baby in an ultrasound. Then tell me that isn't life worth treating with every much rights as you and I have.

I know I was hooked when I saw my son. And my daughter.
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Old 02-03-2003, 08:40 AM   #64
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Re: this will be long.

Wasn't aware you could have abortions in the second trimester-thanks for the correction.

Quote:
Originally posted by KhanadaRhodes
i figured i might as well weigh in too. i'm pro-choice. i won't say that in a similar situation, i'd get an abortion, but i respect the fact that each woman should be able to choose. in a country built on allowing so many freedoms, i think this is just another one.

true, i don't think it'd be right for a girl who sleeps around, insisting on never using a condom (i've encountered several women like this, one of which did get pregnant), and getting pregnant to turn around and have an abortion - to undo her oops! but, legal is legal, and if abortions are legal, women will then be allowed to have them, regardless of her reasons.

adoption is always an option, but i dunno. i look at it this way: there's already so many children in orphanages, waiting to be adopted, why add more? however, again, i respect a woman's decision to not abort her baby, and to put it up for adoption. again, it's great that a woman who gets pregnant but does not want her baby has many choices to choose from.

also, what about teenagers who get pregnant? so many view it that when a woman gets pregnant and knows she doesn't want to keep the child (as in raise it as her own), then adoption's easy! no it's not. a 16 year old girl who gets pregnant then gets yanked out of school. she has to be pregnant for nine long months. schools here have a rule where a pregnant woman can only stay in school for so long before she has to get home schooled. is that fair for her? she runs the risk of being a drop-out almost as much as a 16 year old who raises her baby. not to mention what happens when she sees her baby after it's born.

how would you feel if you saw your little baby you just gave birth to, for the first and only time. i know many women then change their minds and want to keep it. i know i probably would. to see this tiny little creature, knowing it was a part of me for nine long months, and will always be a part of me, i don't think i could bear giving it up. essentially, i think for teenagers, more than any demographic, legal abortions are most essential to them.

also, since i saw people bring up euthanasia, i thought i'd touch on it as well. i don't see the point in having a person live their entire life in pain if they don't want to. personally, i'd make it legal, but with several stipulations. for example, it could only be up to the person to decide, and they'd have to be of sound mind and body to declare they'd want this for themselves (essentially, it would have to be in their will or some other legal document, so not anyone can decide to pull the plug, or have someone delirious with pain and be "oh sure, kill me, fine" and not necessarily mean it.) beforehand. maybe in rare cases, like if they were in some freak accident or something, and never had the opportunity to speak up, a family member could decide. i dunno.

in the case of euthanasia, sure, i'd do it. for myself, that is. if something ever happened to me and i was despondent and would be that way for the rest of my life, i'd want doctors to try whatever they could, and when everything was exhausted, leave it up to my loved ones to decide if and when to pull the plug. i wouldn't want to be a burden to people (especially financially, i don't see the point in spending thousands a year keeping me alive when i don't even know i am), i'd want to let them decide if there's a point in keeping me alive.

in the case of abortion, i don't know. i don't know if i could ever go through with it. especially knowing how many times my mother tried to get pregnant and how many miscarriages she had, i don't think it'd be right to turn around and almost rub that in her face, like "look how hard it was for you to get pregnant, and how easy it is for me! and look how much easier it is for me to get unpregnant! ha!" i know it's only my decision and i shouldn't let outside influences pressure me, but even disregarding that, i just don't think i'd have the guts to do it. but i like knowing i could get one if i had to, and not have to get some shady person to ram a coat hanger up there and abort the baby. i like having that choice, if i needed it.

i look at abortion and euthanasia the same way in some cases. what i mean is, what if a mother was told their child, if born, would be essentially a vegetable? never being able to do anything for themselves, and being brain dead? they wouldn't even be aware of their surroundings or know they're even alive. what kind of life is that? i don't know if i would be able to handle knowing my child would live such a horrible life. i just don't think it'd be fair for the child.

essentially, both come down to the person's decision. not some doctor or nurse, or the annoyed daughter sick of taking care of their grandmother with alzheimer's, but the person themselves. with abortion, the mother should think for herself and her child, and with euthanasia, it should be up to the person in question. no one else.

oh, and pax is right. i've only recently gotten my health insurance back. i've been paying through the nose for my birth control without any insurance. $30 a month! the shots are MUCH easier (and cheaper, it's only a little more for three months' worth, and no remembering to take a pill, but it wreacked havoc on my health and livelihood.) to take. now there's even the patch. i can only get birth control for free if it's shown that i need it for health reasons. it worked back when i was single, because that's why i was taking it. now that i'm married, they won't touch it. how is this fair? it disgusts me that people will impose their opinions and beliefs on others, like only unprotected sex is okay. condoms aren't free (or cheap), and neither is any other form of birth control. all this because a government not based on religion at all thinks it's immoral for a woman to use any form of birth control.
Agree with all you said, both on abortion and euthanasia.

Sting2, I wouldn't consider that murder, no.

Angela
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Old 02-03-2003, 08:55 AM   #65
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Originally posted by gabrielvox



1. Who said the current abortion laws made any SENSE????!?!

2. While you may have strong feelings about capital punishment, and I myself have serious doubts about it as an effective deterrent, the comparison between ending a guilty convicted murderers life (which has precedent in the bible) and murdering an innocent baby, that just makes me sick.

Again, look at a baby in an ultrasound. Then tell me that isn't life worth treating with every much rights as you and I have.

I know I was hooked when I saw my son. And my daughter.
1. Not me! Thats what I am wondering though, is how it is ok under the law to abort the fetus, yet also under the law, a person can be charged with manslughter for involuntarily ending a fetus's life. It doesn't make sense because it is stupid.

2. I may have not written the whole thing well, where you responded with point 2, I meant it as a continuation of what you said in piont one. Put simply, I can drink drive, have an accident with a pregnant woman, she can lose that baby and I can be charged with manslaughter. I can have that accident, her and the unborn fetus are ok, the next day, she can have an abortion and wont be charged. That is the contradiction which shows the law is nothing short of inconsistent.

On a side note though re: capital punishment, I dont feel comfortable with the idea of it. I'm no advocate of it, but those who do recieve that from their jury of peers...I dont really shed a tear. They dont emote sympathy from me as they committed a heinous crime to get themselves in that spot. I dunno.

But back to abortion, I saw my baby's heartbeat on the ultrasound at 10 weeks. I couldn't see the baby clearly but I saw the heartbeat alright!
I know a couple of women who have had an abortion and only spoken in depth about it with one of them. I can never condemn what she did, for to speak to her, I know she is her own Judge and Jury and is suffering so dearly. 6 years later, it kills her to know what she did and to have to live with it for the rest of her life. I dont think she would do it again if she had the choice all over. She had a child the year before in the very same circumstances that brought about the aborting of this second pregnancy, and while she loves the daughter with all the love she has in her being, she knows she did not bring this first child into an ideal or even remotely acceptable environment. She is out of that situation now, but 6 years ago did not have a crystal ball to know where she would end up. Life was bleak. She acted in fear and fear of what would happen to her second child. No justification on her part, just fear and ignorance of where her life would lead to this day.

She is human and made a grave mistake that she is paying for. She needed/needs love and support, guidance and courage and the right to have forgiveness for making a terrible mistake that us humans do all the time. We all have that right.

Her story is not unique. It guides the decision in many cases to choose abortion, but nothing ever, no circumstances can make an abortion ok, or the right choice. Its never the right choice. Its a wrong choice of many other wrong choices to make in situations like that.
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Old 02-03-2003, 10:28 AM   #66
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Re: this will be long.

Quote:
Originally posted by KhanadaRhodes


if something ever happened to me and i was despondent and would be that way for the rest of my life, i'd want doctors to try whatever they could, and when everything was exhausted, leave it up to my loved ones to decide if and when to pull the plug.

I'm despondent pretty much everyday and have been my entire life, but I'd pretty upset if someone thought I should be euthanized!!!!!

Did you mean "unresponsive"?
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Old 02-03-2003, 10:35 AM   #67
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem



She is human and made a grave mistake that she is paying for. She needed/needs love and support, guidance and courage and the right to have forgiveness for making a terrible mistake that us humans do all the time. We all have that right.

Her story is not unique. It guides the decision in many cases to choose abortion, but nothing ever, no circumstances can make an abortion ok, or the right choice. Its never the right choice. Its a wrong choice of many other wrong choices to make in situations like that.
Hey Angela sorry if I misread your last post, this most recent one certainly clears it up for me, and I wanted to commend you for what I quoted above especially. We all make mistakes and definately we need support from others rather than condemnation when we've realized our error!
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Old 02-03-2003, 11:40 AM   #68
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Abortion doesn't 'unrape' a woman or remove the violence that has been perpetrated against her. Why complicate the crime of rape with the crime of taking an innocent child's life? Or, to put it another way: Why should the child pay with its life because its father is a rapist?
you know what, thats a really great thought! ive never heard anyone put it this way before.

i think everyone knows how i feel about the subject.
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Old 02-03-2003, 11:50 AM   #69
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wish i read this over the weekend..(i h

Regarding the rape issue- Everyone is assuming this child is going to be a burden, an ugly reminder, to the mother every single day if his/her existence. WHY? Why do we assume that? Why don't we assume that a child can actually bring the mother joy and comfort, perhaps his/her life consoling her in a way nothing else can. "Good out of evil" sort of thing. But it's easy to assume "oh what an awful reminder- get rid of it" instead of "this awful thing happened to me, but perhaps a beauty can be born of it"...

and even if the woman doesn't want to be a mother, I'm sure there is another woman out there who does! Adoption!

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But those babies canīt have an equal share of the decision that is to be made in a tough case. The baby canīt speak yet,the baby canīt raise a finger to show you it wants to live, the baby canīt sign on the dotted line.
Neither can 5 month olds. I agree with BLS.. great, great words BLS.
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Old 02-03-2003, 11:54 AM   #70
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Originally posted by bonoman
I'm sorry i dont have time to read the whole thread but i was just wondering, after reading the first comment here.

Do the American gov't supply birht control for free?
Not where I live. I know women who pay $35 a month for birth control, and it's used to regulate their cycles and relieve severe cramps.

What I want to know is why, in this day & age, is our birth control medicines so archaic? A pill a day, that if you forget one you could be in danger of pregnancies? That's the best we can do? -I know there is the shot every three months but there are side affects from it, and out of my friends, none of our doctors have offered that usage to us. I'm not talking about condoms b/c those can be used incorrectly/break. I'm talking about pills or shots.. and I think it's pathetic that we're so far behind in this field.

If men were the ones carrying the babies & worrying about pregnancy we'd have advanced medicine for this by now!
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Old 02-03-2003, 12:18 PM   #71
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then theres the whole question as to why the general public is so obsessed with sex.

uh, may i ask why?

mastering the bate is better than doing something stupid and regrettable.

the people who have sex all the time and then have an oops and decide to abort should get the shit kicked out of em.

ill be first in line with a gun and a pack of sandwiches.
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Old 02-03-2003, 01:14 PM   #72
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Originally posted by meegannie
I'm despondent pretty much everyday and have been my entire life, but I'd pretty upset if someone thought I should be euthanized!!!!!

Did you mean "unresponsive"?
yes. that's what i get for typing this stuff at like 2 am!

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
Not where I live. I know women who pay $35 a month for birth control, and it's used to regulate their cycles and relieve severe cramps.

What I want to know is why, in this day & age, is our birth control medicines so archaic? A pill a day, that if you forget one you could be in danger of pregnancies? That's the best we can do? -I know there is the shot every three months but there are side affects from it, and out of my friends, none of our doctors have offered that usage to us. I'm not talking about condoms b/c those can be used incorrectly/break. I'm talking about pills or shots.. and I think it's pathetic that we're so far behind in this field.
same here. that's exactly how much my birth control comes to. i hate the pill. i've been on that tri-monthly shot (depo provera) and it's not fun. any side effects you can have on the pill you will have on depo, and they'll be amplified. after two doses i couldn't take it anymore. i had headaches every day, and was bitch supreme. imagine pms every day, times a thousand.

thursday i'm going to see about the patch. since it's made by the same people who make my pill, i'm hoping the side effects are similar, and not nearly as bad as depo. i take enough pills as it is (i also take topamax every day to prevent headaches) so i'd love to not take that pill. plus, it'd be okay for me to miss a dose of topamax, but it's not to miss a pill. blah.
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Old 02-03-2003, 01:19 PM   #73
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Re: wish i read this over the weekend..(i h

Olive, (with all due respect ) I think this is a very idealistic and beautiful way of looking at things, and you may be right....but I really don't think that is human nature at all. Do you mean to tell me that if you were raped, and you had a boy, especially one that looked like the rapist that you wouldn't have horrible flashbacks?

And Gabriel, I know you mean well but your baby was WANTED so of course you were going to be excited to hear the ultrasound. How would you feel if (God forbid) your own wife were raped and got pregnant? Can you honestly say you could stand to have that baby inside her and would listen happily to the ultrasound? What if your daughter were raped and she were only 12 or 14? Girls go through puberty earlier and earlier nowadays...would you put her through that? (this is a question for everyone really).

And what if the girl/woman is pregnant as a result of incest? Everyone knows what happens with inbreeding. That is not only unfair to the mother but to the child too.

I am not at all saying that abortion is great. I do not think it should be used as fallback from faulty birth control, and I also agree with BLS about the fetus being an innocent life form. I think any loss of life, whether it be the POTENTIAL of life in a fetus, or an animal or a person is tragic. But when it comes to rape, incest or the health and safety of the mother, I think the living breathing mother has to take precedence over the collection of cells that is an early pregnancy (first few weeks). It is really much easier to be a holier than thou armchair philosophiser (for all of us - not singling anyone out) than to actually live in the shoes of some of these women.

I also agree with Olive - If men were bearing the children, it would be a different story!

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
Regarding the rape issue- Everyone is assuming this child is going to be a burden, an ugly reminder, to the mother every single day if his/her existence. WHY? Why do we assume that? Why don't we assume that a child can actually bring the mother joy and comfort, perhaps his/her life consoling her in a way nothing else can. "Good out of evil" sort of thing. But it's easy to assume "oh what an awful reminder- get rid of it" instead of "this awful thing happened to me, but perhaps a beauty can be born of it"...

and even if the woman doesn't want to be a mother, I'm sure there is another woman out there who does! Adoption!



Neither can 5 month olds. I agree with BLS.. great, great words BLS.
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Old 02-03-2003, 01:51 PM   #74
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I also agree with Olive - If men were bearing the children, it would be a different story!
i agree. i've seen several men weigh in on this issue. they seem to mainly think abortion is wrong. while i respect their opinions (because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, after all), i don't think it's entirely fair, i suppose that's the right word. i'm talking all men in general, so i'm not referring to anyone in particular. but it's easy for a man to say it's wrong. they don't have to carry this unwanted baby inside of them.

but as i said, to each his own.
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Old 02-03-2003, 02:05 PM   #75
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The pill scares me.
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