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Old 02-01-2003, 11:55 PM   #16
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

Now what if we had the possibility of ensuring a raped woman that her child will get good care? But anyway she wants an abortion. Not for the reasons you metioned, but for the reason that she doesnīt want to carry a baby in her body for 9 months that she might never think of as being "her baby"?


Well, that's a tough issue. I can't rightly say. Keep in mind that I do believe abortion should remain legal. If she didn't want that reminder...well, I can't say I'd blame her.

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What if a woman is not raped and would be secured enough to give her child a good life, but she is "sexually active" and her pregnancy "just happens" because she is careless? You could surely say its not right she (and he) were that careless, but thats no reason why she should decide for the child if she doesnīt want it - or is it?


Now *that's* a hard question. I don't believe that she should have an abortion at that point. But who is to stop her? If we said, for example, that a woman would have to prove rape or hardship to get an abortion, then careless/unlucky/plain dumb women would lie. I think this problem could be countered somewhat by greater awareness and availability of birth control and the lessening of societal stigmas surrounding it, but this has already happened in a lot of ways, too. I don't have an answer for that one, hiphop, except to state that I think it would be an abuse of the right to choose.

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Now, what about the man? What if the woman wants an abortion, but he would like to bring the child up, to care for it, to nurture it? Should the woman have the right to say "no", if there is a presumably good father who could take care? Everyone agrees, I guess that when the situation is the other way īround, (the woman wants the child, the man doesnīt), he has to pay for the rest of his life, which is fair. What about equality in decision?


But you save the heaviest ammo for last. This case, I think, is rare. I think I would have a hard time understanding why a woman would want to have an abortion if she knew that she'd have no responsibility after birth--but I guess some women feel that way. And even though this situation is somewhat uncommon, I recognize that it happens. It's very difficult because you can't take the baby out of the mother and let the father carry it; in the end, she has to do the work, and her mind is living in the body. I would think that a woman would be mature enough to recognize that the father has a say in this decision. Again, I don't have an answer for you, at least not yet.
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Old 02-01-2003, 11:56 PM   #17
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Can you say what magically happens on the first day of that 4th month that makes the killing wrong?

I'm basically hearing that abortion is justified if the mother doesn't want the baby. To use being wanted by someone as a measure of whether a human life is allowed to live is a frightening concept. Its converse logically awaits us — that the unwanted can be eliminated. Don’t forget, Hitler’s Germany was ideal for wanted Aryans.
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Old 02-02-2003, 12:05 AM   #18
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I'm not sure that the parallel you draw is a fair one, b'sls. The decision to abort remains a very personal and difficult one that the woman has to live with for the rest of her life, no matter what she chooses. The assumption that underlies your argument is that women--all women--are meant to be mothers, and I don't believe that this is so.
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Old 02-02-2003, 12:28 AM   #19
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Nothing happens, bonosloveslave (or yes, the child is growing, but that doesnīt have an effect on our discussion). But the law has to set a border somewhere. And since you can define three months as enough time for the mother to feel that she got pregnant plus to think of the possible consequences, I think that this border is chosen relatively ok- maybe it could be lowered to two and a half months, I donīt know.

The last assumption you make is a gross one. I think, f.e. that when a child will be handicapped, anyway the mother should decide to keep it, if she can deal with it. But anyway, it stays the decision of the mother. Not the one of the state. Under Hitler, the decision was taken away from the mother, and transferred to the state.

One of my uncleīs wives has made the decision to let her child live, and it could be that this juvenile dies soon, she is heavily handicapped but has lived for over seventeen years now, and we all assume she likes it, because she smiles and is treated with great care. This mother is an extremely strong and brave person.

I never said that "being wanted by someone is a measure of whether a human life is allowed to live or not". In this case, it is not "someone", it is not Hitler, it is not a mass murderer and not a killer. It is the mother. If you want to compare a mother to Hitler, thats your problem.

I donīt think you meant it personal, anyway. I just think you are drawing up those arguments because I was tough enough to say what I think about when the act of killing can be justified - or maybe neither justified, I am not the judge here; but when law should allow the mother to kill her unborn child.

I was tough enough to say so. On the other hand, I think you are caring and feeling enough, with your natural instinct as a woman, to think "My God! Its about the babies, the poor babies. The crying, little, great, poor, wonderful babies that are denied life".

You will use every argument you need for that feeling, even if you can somehow see the fact that some arguments I use are not coming out of nowhere, and not said carelessly.

And it is good that you do that, because ultimatively feelings should be worth more than laws, and have a greater value than arguments. They donīt, in our world, but they should.

Just accept the fact that its up to every mother to make her decision.

Good night
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Old 02-02-2003, 12:30 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
I'm not sure that the parallel you draw is a fair one, b'sls.
I think maybe you don't see it as parallel because you say the mother is the main issue. But is that baby a person or not? If it is, then they should be an equal part of the issue. If it is a person, then 43 million persons are being exterminated each year because they are not wanted. Hitler didn't want the Jews around, they were persons - why is it ok to exterminate preborn persons and not Jewish persons?
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Old 02-02-2003, 12:36 AM   #21
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Hiphop - you're right, I can't get past the fact of these babies. I see them as persons. I don't understand why a mother should be allowed to kill her 3 month old preborn baby and not her 3 month old born baby. If you don't see these babies as persons, then you'll never understand where I'm coming from.


Sorry I kept you up so late
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Old 02-02-2003, 12:51 AM   #22
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postscriptum:

I see those babies as persons, just like you, and I understand where youīre coming from.

But those babies canīt have an equal share of the decision that is to be made in a tough case. The baby canīt speak yet, the baby canīt raise a finger to show you it wants to live, the baby canīt sign on the dotted line.

If you transfer the right of the mother to clearly think about this issue to the right of the state which allows and forbids whatever it wants at the moment in the interest of the state - and the interest of the state can also change - , youīre moving in the wrong direction.

The only thing we can do is to educate the mother to not make a decision for herself, but a decision for the child and herself. And the state allows her three (or two, because probably she doesnīt realize it the first day) months to decide.

Donīt be sorry for keeping me up, it was my pleasure.
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Old 02-02-2003, 01:04 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


But those babies canīt have an equal share of the decision that is to be made in a tough case. The baby canīt speak yet, the baby canīt raise a finger to show you it wants to live, the baby canīt sign on the dotted line.

You're correct - and I realize you have a slightly different societal background than I do - I am drawing a blank on what country you're from (but it's in Europe somewhere, right?). I'm assuming euthanasia is legal there?

I'm just of the belief that all life is inherently valuable. I think a toddler is just as valuable as his teenage brother, who is just as valuable as his mother, who is just as valuable as Grandma with Alzheimers, who is just as valuable as someone with Down's Syndrome, who is just as valuable as a person at any stage of gestation. I'm very glad that America has decided that even though Grandma with Alzheimers may not be able to talk, can't verbalize if she wants to live or die, can't sign on the dotted line to say please don't kill me - we still do not have the right to make that choice for her. A handicapped person likely cannot do those things either, and yet we cannot just decide we don't want them around, they are too much of a burden, buh-bye. They have inherent value solely because they are people, period. We don't have the right to say, you're not worth the money to care for, you make my life miserable so I want you gone for good.

And I'm glad we don't. Because it wouldn't be long before someone said my life wasn't worth living for something much less than those reasons above.
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Old 02-02-2003, 02:41 AM   #24
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I'm going to take this from an utterly selfish rambling train-of-thought standpoint that's probably going to offend someone.
I'm pro-choice... I hate children. I'm utterly terrified of getting pregnant, I'm the most impatient person in the world and I really can't think of anything that would ruin my life more than getting pregnant. A lot of you would say children are a blessing, it's different when they're your own, etc... but I have a lot of things planned for my life and it would be impossible to do most of them if I had a kid. My worst fear is to wake up one morning and realize I never did anything I wanted to in life. That said, I haven't had a date for six years, so in the unlikely event that I would get pregnant... I don't know what I would do, probably give it up for adoption, I promised a friend I'd do that once. My cousin Akuah got pregnant two years ago when she was 17... I was recently with her and her baby and she told me "You know, I really wanted to go to college and live in the dorms, but then I got pregnant and it fucked it all up..." My dad once told me that if I got pregnant I should run away before he killed me.
Not that I think all unwanted babies should be aborted, I very much respect and support those who choose to have theirs. I'm a giant supporter of birth control.
I also have a sort of irritation with pro-life, I associate it with the pro-life hecklers on campus. Every now and then there's people EVERYWHERE on campus with giant signs and pamphlets, they MAKE you take them and yell at you about how you're going to hell and then write editorials in the paper about how the annual drag show and democrats cause us to have abortions because we're all incarnations of the whore of Babylon.
I'm not going to say anything about the "Where does life start?" question because I haven't made up my mind on that.
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Old 02-02-2003, 03:18 AM   #25
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along the lines of what Kristie posted...I'm pro choice...however I would never consider having an abortion, or if a friend of mine wanted to have one, I would make sure that she has thought this through completely.

I understand the pro life argument...and in a sense I am pro life, however what may be good for me, may not be good for someone else. However, what I don't understand is the "guerrilla pro lifers," the ones who think it's a horrible sin to kill an unborn child, but think it's perfectly alright to kill a doctor or bomb a clinic and take the lives of the people inside. I am all for one in "live and let live," however, I don't want someone else shoving their ideologies down my throat, like the people on Kristie's campus.

Nor do I agree with the women who use abortion as a form of birth control. When I was in school, I knew a girl who had at least six abortions during her four years in high school. Her "boyfriends" didn't want to use a condom, and she couldn't afford birth control pills. I know the logic doesn't make sense, the pill is more cost effective than an abortion, but I guess some people don't think. Anyway, the first one she had was horrible for her obviously....then, according to her, over time, it became "nothing" to her, "like having an ear infection and getting antiboitics." Needless to say, I found it hard to be friends with someone who devalued life that much.
It also called into question my pro choice stance...was I really pro choice? How was it okay for me to say, "yes it's an individual decision, I may not agree with it, but I must be supportive," yet feel so sickened by this girl who treated pregnancy like an infection.

So I guess, I stand somewhere in the middle....
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Old 02-02-2003, 04:56 AM   #26
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hmmm. i was hoping that this topic would never surface, but here it is. it is difficult to listen to people who have never had to deal with unplanned pregnancy discuss what women who have faced it should or should not do. surely, with the abortion rate so high, there must be at least one woman here who has been in this situation...hiphop, you say you aren't familiar with u.s. abortion laws. i believe they may vary from state to state, but i do know that in nevada, abortions are legal up to twenty-four weeks. imagine that. six months. and yes, daisybean, it is easy for abortion to become "nothing" to women when a first trimester abortion is easier and quicker than going to the dentist. a woman is simply brought into an office, counseled briefly, given a shot to render her unconscious, and there you are! problem solved! and ads like the one in my phone book touting "silent suction machines" and "one short visit if 11 weeks or less" make the abortion option seem even friendlier. i think these ads are sick. what these ads should include is the truth. they should explain to women that a second trimester abortion will be a painful, two-day procedure involving what is essentially a forced miscarriage and an excruciating scraping of the uterus. they also do not tell you how you will remember every minute of this procedure, everyday, for the rest of your life. nor will they tell you of the overwhelming guilt you will feel when in a roomful of people who are having discussions like this.
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Old 02-02-2003, 05:28 AM   #27
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Lets not underestimate the grief felt by those who do abort for whatever reason it is. We can argue in a clinical manner about laws and the stages of a developing fetus, but I think most of those who do abort feel that decision keenly and more than an outsider can ever imagine, every day for the rest of their life. An abortion only ends a pregnancy, no other problems does it solve.
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Old 02-02-2003, 07:55 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonosloveslave


You're correct - and I realize you have a slightly different societal background than I do - I am drawing a blank on what country you're from (but it's in Europe somewhere, right?). I'm assuming euthanasia is legal there?

I'm just of the belief that all life is inherently valuable. I think a toddler is just as valuable as his teenage brother, who is just as valuable as his mother, who is just as valuable as Grandma with Alzheimers, who is just as valuable as someone with Down's Syndrome, who is just as valuable as a person at any stage of gestation. I'm very glad that America has decided that even though Grandma with Alzheimers may not be able to talk, can't verbalize if she wants to live or die, can't sign on the dotted line to say please don't kill me - we still do not have the right to make that choice for her. A handicapped person likely cannot do those things either, and yet we cannot just decide we don't want them around, they are too much of a burden, buh-bye. They have inherent value solely because they are people, period. We don't have the right to say, you're not worth the money to care for, you make my life miserable so I want you gone for good.

And I'm glad we don't. Because it wouldn't be long before someone said my life wasn't worth living for something much less than those reasons above.
I believe the same.

And no, euthanasia is not legalized in my country. I think maybe its legalized in Holland, but I donīt know - and if it has been leg., thats about the only country in Europe where its been legalized.

And I think that the grandma with alzheimer who canīt sign the dotted line canīt decide. The decisions in this case are not made because those people are a burden, but probably bc its just the machines that keep them alive with their pain. Youīre right, under normal circumstances we donīt have the right to decide to kill them. But do we have the right to force them to live on?

As for abortion the decision of euthanasia has to involve the loved ones, the people who are very near to this person. How could you kill your mother if you love her? I guess I could never do that, also if she is suffering incredible pain.... its just theories, like some have pointed out.

Just my opinion.
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Old 02-02-2003, 08:09 AM   #29
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Quote:
Too Pro-Life for Pro-Choicers, Too Pro-Choice for Pro-Lifers


I think that pretty much sums up my opinion on this issue. I'm pro-life in that I'd never have an abortion myself. I'm pro-choice because not all women have the luxury of making that decision. So both the pro-choicers and the pro-lifers hate me so I pretty much keep my mouth shut on this issue
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Old 02-02-2003, 09:57 AM   #30
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if the babies are innocent why must they b killed?
does "convience" take presedence over "innocence"?

forgive sp errors.
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