Toddlers who dislike spicy food 'racist' - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-09-2008, 05:06 PM   #16
Blue Crack Supplier
 
coolian2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hamilton (No longer STD capital of NZ)
Posts: 42,920
Local Time: 06:53 AM
IT BURNZ
__________________

__________________
coolian2 is offline  
Old 07-09-2008, 05:55 PM   #17
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaz02 View Post
How can anyone under the age of 10 be branded racist, its laughable.
Of course a kid under the age of ten can be racist.
__________________

__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-09-2008, 06:12 PM   #18
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
vaz02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: manchester
Posts: 7,447
Local Time: 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
Of course a kid under the age of ten can be racist.
How possibly could a kid understand race at that age. I remember when i was at that age, i would say anything without knowing the true meaning of the pharse or word i was saying. Children can be very impressionable.
__________________
vaz02 is offline  
Old 07-09-2008, 06:27 PM   #19
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaz02 View Post
How possibly could a kid understand race at that age. I remember when i was at that age, i would say anything without knowing the true meaning of the pharse or word i was saying. Children can be very impressionable.
Perhaps you don't work around kids? I'm a teacher so I work with kids every day and kids under the age of ten are a lot smarter and more aware than you're giving them credit for. If a kid is old enough to hate then they are old enough to be racist. And sometimes seven and eight year olds can be awfully cruel--it's not as if they "don't know" they are being mean.

As for saying "racist things" without knowing the true meaning or import of what they're saying, there are adults who have that problem.

And anyway even if a kid is throwing around racist slurs without knowing what they mean it's our responsiblity to teach them what these words mean and make it clear that they're inappropriate rather than smile and say "Aw isn't that cute. After all he doesn't know what he's saying!" You don't need to browbeat the kid but you do need to educate him.

I have a feeling that this was probably the actual point of this 366 page document--not to encourage the "policing of thought."
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-09-2008, 06:57 PM   #20
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
vaz02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: manchester
Posts: 7,447
Local Time: 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
If a kid is old enough to hate then they are old enough to be racist.
What could a kid possibly hate at that age ? To truely hate something you must have a rational understanding of the situation.
My mum works as a teacher in both a nursery and a primary school so im not totally alien to the concept of young children.
__________________
vaz02 is offline  
Old 07-09-2008, 07:00 PM   #21
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 63,720
Local Time: 09:53 AM
They might not understand why they're hating, but I think they can hate ... and I would take a gander that they hate because they were taught to do so.
__________________
corianderstem is offline  
Old 07-09-2008, 07:43 PM   #22
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaz02 View Post
To truely hate something you must have a rational understanding of the situation.

Um, no, that is, in essesnse the defintion of ignorance, to not have a rational understanding.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 07-09-2008, 07:50 PM   #23
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
vaz02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: manchester
Posts: 7,447
Local Time: 05:53 PM
I understand the point, but i can rationally understand the current economic situation and still hate it.
__________________
vaz02 is offline  
Old 07-09-2008, 07:53 PM   #24
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:53 AM
You seem to be assuming that hatred is predicated on ignorance. One can make an informed judgement and hate an ideology. Hatred can be perfectly rational, and at times useful.

Race is different than ideology because it is an innate quality, and has little bearing in actual ability (although racial variation does exist it isn't cause for discrimination).
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 07-09-2008, 07:55 PM   #25
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaz02 View Post
I understand the point, but i can rationally understand the current economic situation and still hate it.
You're confusing me.

First you said HAVE to have a rational understanding in order to hate. Now you say you understand.

Then you go on to give an example of how one CAN have a rational understanding and still hate.



I think one can hate with or without a rational understanding...
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 07-09-2008, 08:10 PM   #26
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:53 AM
If your talking to be I used can not HAVE.

I can think of a few examples, heres an obvious one.

The views of the Muslim Brotherhood are antithetical to mine, I find the concept that a state must be in line with God dehumanising and the agenda that such groups pursue frequently angers me.

I hate what such groups stand for, and since I am not a Christian I can say I hate them for what they do.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 07-09-2008, 10:03 PM   #27
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 11:53 AM
I quoted vazo2
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 07-09-2008, 11:17 PM   #28
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
They might not understand why they're hating, but I think they can hate ... and I would take a gander that they hate because they were taught to do so.
Hate isn't all that deep. It doesn't take some great amount of high-level thinking and "understanding" to hate.

Kids can hate, and when hatred takes the form of racism, that's generally taught.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-10-2008, 12:07 AM   #29
I serve MacPhisto
 
unforgettableFOXfire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,053
Local Time: 12:53 PM
I think there's something of an equivocation going on about definitions of 'hate' here that might be causing confusion.

One is 'hate' as the manifestation of ignorance and fear of what you don't understand.
Two is 'hate' as the outrage and consternation with a viewpoint understood and deemed to be wrong, invalid, reprehensible, etc. yet held anyway.

In case one someone who 'hates' would hate the person for a reason non-essential to the person, and in case two the person who 'hates' would hold hatred of the principle and the fervor of those who hold it but not the people themselves. There's not as much wrong with the latter, since the exploration of truth requires the eradication of errors and non-truths. Some of the more insipid and insidious haters do an excellent job at blurring those lines, though -- but I'd say most (if not all) of those people aren't children.
__________________
unforgettableFOXfire is offline  
Old 07-10-2008, 03:45 AM   #30
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 06:53 PM
BVS, could you please cut back on all the and ? It starts to have a similar effect to that of certain posters who always SHOUT!!!! after awhile.



I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable applying the term "racist" to the behavior of actual preschool-age children (early 5 and under), which seems to be what the article was referring to. I guess mostly because racism, at least as I understand it, requires grasping the notion of social 'categories' into which people can be divided, and it hasn't been my experience as a parent that children that young reliably have this grasp (an 8-year-old, on the other hand, absolutely would). But it's all very much of a continuum, so it's hard to say; I do think for example that many children towards the upper end of the preschool age range show an awareness of stigma--that certain traits cue for 'open season' on kids who have them in a way that others don't--and even though they may not quite grasp the implicit system underlying that yet, still, it's clearly a precursor. (White kids that age don't call other white people n-----, nor do they taunt other kids for having non-stigmatized traits like blond hair or green eyes, so there's clearly something a little more conscious and intentional than incomprehending parroting going on when they use racial slurs.) And certainly many 4-year-olds for instance are quite capable of intentionally humiliating other children and enjoying it, or of gloating that they're 'better than' others somehow. So all the ingredients are there, in a sense.

I don't think coming to be aware of those social categories is bad in itself; on the contrary, you can't usefully talk to children about racism if they're too young to understand what race is. It's certainly a more complex concept than simply noticing that people have varying skin colors, which happens much earlier. But it's something parents should discuss with their children at least before they start regular school, if not well before--don't wait until and if they use, or receive, their first racial slur themselves. Just because you haven't heard your children articulate negative associations with people who are black, South Asian, overweight, whatever, doesn't mean they aren't forming them...often with help from adults who don't explicitly articulate those things either, but convey them by reacting to and treating certain 'kinds' of people differently.

"Hate" is such a strong word; I think introducing that into it might be misleading, too. Not that plenty of children and adults who hold racist attitudes aren't clearly hateful--but I don't think it's always a question of felt hostility towards some collective they belong to.
__________________

__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com