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Old 12-11-2001, 05:01 PM   #16
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Originally posted by U2Bama:
I thought they determined that "sneak attack" was racist, offensive, and politically incorrect towards the Japanese attackers?
U2Bama, with all due respect, I think you're getting it wrong - I don't know exactly where DoctorGonzo is coming from ( I don't agree with him in his stance on the American Taliban fighter in the other thread) but I do know that calling the Japanese attack as a 'sneak attack' is not wrong; I deplore what happened in Pearl Harbour and it was unprovoked as it was callous. However, what I object to even more was the US dropping two atomic bombs on two cities filled with innocent women and children, not to mention men as well who had nothing to do with that. It would be like dropping atomic bombs on Afghanistan nowadays. I know it was the right cause, but it was the wrong way to do it, and no matter how anyone paints it as just, it wasn't. Incinerating innocent children by the millions is probably one of the most barbaric things any civilisation has ever done, and I want everyone to admit to it, while they go on about the lives lost during Pearl Harbour. Oh yes, many innocent lives were lost, but is that in balance with those lost in Japan? No, they weren't.

It was barbaric, not patriotic, and it would be nice if people remembered the ENTIRE loss of human life, not to regard it as only the good guys dying on this oh so tragic day.

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Old 12-11-2001, 05:50 PM   #17
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neither side has ANYTHING to be proud of from that attack. the japanese are wrong to instigate the attack, and the US is wrong for nearly flat out totalling japan. in war there is no winner, evrybody loses to some extent, it's just a question of which side suffers less.
you cannot completely forget the past, but don't dwell on it either.
do germans have the right to "commemorate" some of Hilter's military "successes"?? are they proud to be german? i'm sure they are and so they should be, some of the best things came out of there.
are they proud of their military history? i hope not.
rsearch the last 500 years of human history and tell me, straight-faced, it's been a pleasant picture, there was a lot of good, but more bad things happened, a lot more.



[This message has been edited by CannibalisticArtist (edited 12-11-2001).]
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Old 12-11-2001, 08:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
U2Bama, with all due respect, I think you're getting it wrong - I don't know exactly where DoctorGonzo is coming from ( I don't agree with him in his stance on the American Taliban fighter in the other thread) but I do know that calling the Japanese attack as a 'sneak attack' is not wrong; I deplore what happened in Pearl Harbour and it was unprovoked as it was callous.
Ant:

My comment regarding "sneak attack" was pure sarcasm. Ever since the movie PEARL HARBOR came out, hypersensitive speech police have been warning American educators and the media not to use the term "sneak attack" as that could somehow be perceived as racist, offensive, insensitive, etc. I do not know where they get that from, but it is just an example of the petty monster that America has created known as "political correctness.

Quote:
Incinerating innocent children by the millions is probably one of the most barbaric things any civilisation has ever done, and I want everyone to admit to it, while they go on about the lives lost during Pearl Harbour.
Actually, there were about 270,000 victims in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, combined, and that includes those that died over the long term. Not that I think that makes it any better. Considering the situation at the time, though, I cannot second-guess our President or military in the decision to bomb those two cities. Even as they were being defeated, Japan's imperial forces refused to let up in the entire Pacific theatre. Not only that, but in their desperation, they were increasing their run of kamikaze (suicide) missions. I could never have dropped the bomb myself, but I do not think that the decision was entered into lightly. I hope nothing like that ever happens again.

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Old 12-11-2001, 09:17 PM   #19
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Thanks U2Bama, I thought I had gotten your comment the wrong way round, I'm glad you clarified it; yes, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS is one of the most obscene things ever created by Modern thinking. We are meant to like people because of their colour, not because of who they are. We are supposed to be REALLY REALLY ok with the idea of homosexuality not because it IS alright, but because we are meant to think of it as such. We are supposed to think women and men are the same, not equal as they are. And we are not supposed to say things as they are in fear of sounding brutish and cruel, well I for one have always called shit shit, not excrement in hope of sounding PC. I agree though, to hell with PC.

Thanks for clarifying that!

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Old 12-11-2001, 09:20 PM   #20
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No problem; but most of those items are not the part of political correctness I find crazy; it is more the "sneak attack is racist" campaings that trouble me.

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[This message has been edited by U2Bama (edited 12-11-2001).]
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Old 12-12-2001, 12:19 AM   #21
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I dunno, I can kind of see where the term "sneak attack" might be problematic. If you say the Japanese executed a sneak attack, you might be implying that Japanese people are "sneaky" in general, or your words might be perceived that way despite your intentions.

I do have somewhat mixed feelings about it. I am sometimes a little annoyed by the PC police but I always try to put myself in the place of those who say they feel maligned. Once I do that, my annoyance usually fades away.

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Old 12-12-2001, 12:25 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by pub crawler:
I dunno, I can kind of see where the term "sneak attack" might be problematic. If you say the Japanese executed a sneak attack, you might be implying that Japanese people are "sneaky" in general, or your words might be perceived that way despite your intentions.

I do have somewhat mixed feelings about it. I am sometimes a little annoyed by the PC police but I always try to put myself in the place of those who say they feel maligned. Once I do that, my annoyance usually fades away.

Do many Japanese people really feel this way about the term "sneak attack"? I've often thought that some terms were branded insensitive by the PC police because they were bored and had nothing better to do, not because it upset a particular group of people.

As an example, "Oriental" is said to be derogatory because it, being the opposite of "Occidental," supposedly refers to an old Western-centric view of civilization. I'm Korean and I find this explanation to be nonsense.
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Old 12-12-2001, 09:28 AM   #23
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Japan's imperial military brass designs an attack on Hawaii's Pearl Harbor; it is considered a "sneak attack." That doesn't lead me to consider Japanese people "sneaky."

Sorry, Pub Crawler, but I think that is stretching it a bit. Using a term for a specific event doesn't translate to a blanket generalization.

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Old 12-12-2001, 11:22 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
Japan's imperial military brass designs an attack on Hawaii's Pearl Harbor; it is considered a "sneak attack." That doesn't lead me to consider Japanese people "sneaky."
Er, uh, I'm not saying it does. I'm not saying you personally consider Japanese people sneaky (I was using the generic "you" in my post above - sorry if that wasn't clear). I'm speculating as to the reason why "hypersensitive speech police have been warning American educators and the media not to use the term 'sneak attack.'"

I don't know if Japanese folks are offended by such a term. However, my feeling is the term "sneak attack" could possibly engender a stereotype.

Now, the question is, would it ever have occured to me that this term could be deemed offensive had the PC police not told me so? I think this is where the mild annoyance comes in.... the idea that someone is telling me how I need to think. On the other hand, do I completely dismiss any objection to the term "sneak attack" just because I'm a little annoyed with the PC police? Questions, that's all.



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Old 12-12-2001, 12:31 PM   #25
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The subtle use of language is very important in influencing people to form stereotypes about people. For instance, term "Islamic terrorist", which has been constantly used in our media for many years now, is clearly biased, and negatively influences many Americans' views of peaceful Muslims. In years of coverage on the conflict in Northern Ireland, I've never once seen the term "Christian terrorist" applied to any of the factions there.

So there is a basis for considering the term "sneak attack" racism-tinged, as it does influence Americans to think of Japanese as less trustworthy (and indeed many did from 1941-1970 especially). When the Germans rolled into Poland, it was not called a sneak attack, it was hailed as "blitzkrieg", a major scientific advance in military tactics. The U.S. often tells the media to maintain silence to preserve "an element of surprise" for our attacks. I gather these are not considered "sneaky".

And as for bombing . . . when the U.S. bombs countries (there are too many to name at this point) and causes civilian casualties, the "bravery" of the pilots is lauded as heroic. Were the Japanese pilots of 1941 brave?

What's brave about flying where no one can reach you, dropping a payload that murders thousands of people, then flying away? I would say if anything, that's equivalent to stabbing someone in the back and running away - an act of cowardice, not bravery. Wherever it happens - Hawaii or Afghanistan.

I don't want to heap too much blame on the soldiers, since they are victims of government propaganda even worse than what civilians are subjected to, but I certainly can't consider them heroes. I understand that many of them believe that they are doing the right thing, because in their training the "enemies" of the U.S. are demonized. I suspect that many of these young people would do the right thing (i.e. not kill) if they were given accurate information. But really, the whole idea that you have the right to murder someone because your government tells you to is asinine. Even if goverments could be trusted to tell the truth.
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Old 12-12-2001, 01:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by sv:
I don't want to heap too much blame on the soldiers, since they are victims of government propaganda even worse than what civilians are subjected to, but I certainly can't consider them heroes. I understand that many of them believe that they are doing the right thing, because in their training the "enemies" of the U.S. are demonized. I suspect that many of these young people would do the right thing (i.e. not kill) if they were given accurate information. But really, the whole idea that you have the right to murder someone because your government tells you to is asinine. Even if goverments could be trusted to tell the truth.
What are you saying? I really don't get your point. The angle from where some of us were coming from was that dropping atomic bombs is not necessarily brave, but leans more to the barbaric side; no one called the Japanese bombing brave. However, I don't see your point. Please explain.

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Old 12-12-2001, 01:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by pub crawler:
I dunno, I can kind of see where the term "sneak attack" might be problematic. If you say the Japanese executed a sneak attack, you might be implying that Japanese people are "sneaky" in general, or your words might be perceived that way despite your intentions.
Not at all, pubcrawler. The attack was cowardly and truly horrific, there was nothing nice or good about it - it WAS sneaky. Whats so difficult about that? That doesn'mt imply that the Japanese are sneaky by nature at all. I think the US dropping the atomic bombs was barbaric, but I don't think the US to be barbaric.... the entire Nazi regime and the Holocaust was really just pure evil, but that doesn't mean that Germans are evil. See where I'm coming from? It isn't a racial slur, its an observation of an action.

As for PC, to hell with it. I hate it, its arrogant and patronising, and was merely invented to satisfy self-righteous and self-important people with loud mouths.

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Old 12-12-2001, 02:13 PM   #28
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Anthony -

I agree I wasn't clear enough on my point. I was contrasting the terminology used by the government and U.S. media to describe the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor ("sneaky") with the terminology used to describe U.S. bombing raids on Afghanistan (the pilots are generally referred to as brave, not sneaky). My point is that this double standard in terminology is no accident, and it has important and negative effects on how Americans (in this case) perceive the perpetrators in each case.

The term "sneak" encourages us to think of the Pearl Harbor attack as cowardly and immoral (which it was), and of the Japanese as untrustworthy (and for many years this was a dominant American perception of Asians). But many Americans do not consider the bombing of Afghani cities cowardly and immoral (which it is), and I would argue that the media's linkage of the "bravery" concept with American bombing raids contributes to this. And it is a major problem for the world when U.S. citizens sanction the murder of civilians in other countries.

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Old 12-12-2001, 06:06 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by brettig:
Ive heard promos for the pearl harbour dvd trying to sell off the anniversary...
Isn't that sick?

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Old 12-12-2001, 09:19 PM   #30
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Geez. Thats pretty twisted.

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