Time to pull out? How many dead will be the last straw? - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-28-2003, 10:33 AM   #1
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Time to pull out? How many dead will be the last straw?

I'm sorry if there is another thread on this, but I have reached the point where I think it's time to start protesting in the streets a la Viet Nam. I am sick and tired of hearing about 3 or 4 of our people being killed every day. I wasn't even totally against the war effort and I feel this way. I hear old white conservative men in the country store complaining about the waste and how they should be out of there. One of the old men said, whether we go or stay, the place is crazy. So let's go before anyone else is killed. His nephew is over there in the MPs. He is a WW2 vet himself.

When you have those types of people complaining, how long will the support last? I now see signs in front of stores that used to read 'GO USA' changed to "Pray for our troops' safe return' The American person on the street has had enough. It's a waste. How many of our boys, and/or girls, will be considered expendable? These are PEOPLE and LIVES here, not 'sacrifices' as they are always called when they die. How long do you think handing a mother or a wife a flag will suffice? The anger is spreading. The morale of the troops is low. Iraq is now the predicted quagmire, and our troops (and Brits too) are sitting ducks for terrorism and sneak attacks. It's time we let those in charge know how we feel!
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Old 07-28-2003, 11:49 AM   #2
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I agree. I'm getting really tired of hearing about these killings. The sooner control can be given to the Iraqis and we can get the hell out of there the better. There are even complaints in the local newspapers which are very supportive of Bush and the war effort.
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Old 07-28-2003, 12:01 PM   #3
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Every day I read in the headlines that another soldier has died in Iraq, I get very upset. However, as far as your post is concerned, I could not disagree with you more.

First of all, whether or not one supported the war, the fact of the matter is, the USA attacked Iraq with the goal of uprooting a ruthless dictator and his regime and creating a free society for the people of Iraq. If we leave now, the country will undoubtly fall into the hands of a radical muslim group which will leave the country worse than when we found it. Also, the whole idea of making the middle east and the US safer with the ouster of Saddam would be thrown right out the window because this new islamic country would most likely become a breeding ground for terrorists, just like Afganistan.

Second of all, I have read in recent days (since the killing of Uday and Quassai) that many military commanders in Iraq believe that we are approaching the 'hump' so to speak in winning the peace. With the confirmed deathes of Saddam's sons, comes a feeling on the street that the regime is gone for good. Therefore, valuable intelligence from everyday Iraqis has been flowing in at an amazing rate. So, again contrary to your beliefs, now is the time more than ever to stick by our troops and the cause for rebuilding Iraq. We could possibly be approaching a 'final push' with the winning of the peace.

Third, these things take time. This country has been neglected for 30 years by Saddam. The infrastructure is shot to hell. So when it's 130 degrees outside and there is no food, power and water and some guy offers you $3,000. to kill a soldier and that if you don't that they will kill your family, what choice do you have? The flipside of that is when all the infrastructure is repaired, people have jobs again and law and order are returned to the streets, then the killings of US soldiers will all but vanish.

Right now, Iraq is still a very scary place. However, the death of Saddam's sons brings new hope to the speedy rebuilding of Iraq. When we protest in the streets against the cause, that hurts morale of the troops and fuels the jihad fighters. Therefore, more US soldiers will be killed, not less. Now is not the time to be protesting in the streets. Now is the time to stand behind the cause, find and capture/kill Saddam and rebuild Iraq so the people there can live fruitful lives without being opressed by a ruthless, raping, maming, killing dictatorship.
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Old 07-28-2003, 12:23 PM   #4
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Good post, wolfwill23. It's true that there are all of the complaints in the newspapers. But just because the troops are getting killed doesn't even mean that the majority of the Iraqi people want the Americans out. I'm not sure the people in Washington knew just how tough it would be to "win the peace". But "the peace" *has* to be done. Winning the war was easy; winning the peace is long, difficult and mostly thankless and may carry a political price tag.
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Old 07-28-2003, 01:38 PM   #5
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I can't watch the news anymore, it is so sad, eveyday more soldiers and Iraqis are killed. However, America cannot leave yet, they have to clean up the mess they have made. Can you imagine what it would be like over there if they just left now, it would be so much worse.

Also, this is what the people who are attacking the soldiers want, they know that the more they kill, Americans will get more upset and demand that they come home.

God bless the troops.
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Old 07-28-2003, 02:22 PM   #6
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Just leaving is no option - if you leave, the Mullahs will get in power there and it could get even worse compared to Saddams Regime.

The only way for the US should be:
giving the power over Iraq back the the UN. France and Germany allready announced that they would help in Iraq if the full controll would be at the UN.

But even with the UN it would continue to be a bloody mission for quite a while.

Klaus

p.s. i wonder if Mr. Bush sometimes thinks about "For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk; the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up."
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Old 07-28-2003, 03:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
Just leaving is no option - if you leave, the Mullahs will get in power there and it could get even worse compared to Saddams Regime.
<snip>
But even with the UN it would continue to be a bloody mission for quite a while.

Klaus
True. It's a hell of a mess, but it's got to be cleaned up. Sort of like my web site.
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Old 07-28-2003, 11:50 PM   #8
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I still agree with the old man at the country store. Whether or not we stay, it is a messed up and scary place. The longer we stay, the more will die. If you say we must stay until it's 'finished' that's just the Vietnam type quagmire I saw and feared when I posted this.
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Old 07-29-2003, 01:20 AM   #9
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i agree with wolfwill23.


we can't just pull out, or it'd be worse off than it was before we went in.


(it should be stated that i didn't like the way this war began, but it sure as hell isn't going to be marred by premature exiting of troops and funding)

i also agree that we should perhaps get the UN back in there.


Quote:
Originally posted by Leeloo
How many of our boys, and/or girls, will be considered expendable? These are PEOPLE and LIVES here, not 'sacrifices' as they are always called when they die.
these lives aren't considered expendable. it is still a great sadness when military personnel are lost in the line of duty. but their sacrifice is huge - to rid iraq of saddam's tyranny. i think most people understand that the soldiers that are killed there are people with moms and dads and dogs and sisters and brothers.


who exactly is deeming these lives expendable?
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Old 07-29-2003, 03:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/29/in...29FRAN.html?th

...
Mr. Chirac has ruled out any participation of French troops in a peacemaking or peacekeeping capacity unless there is a United Nations mandate. Senior German officials similarly refuse to consider the deployment of troops without a changed mandate, but as one of them noted last week, "We do not want the American occupation to fail."

In a radio interview last week, Mr. de Villepin argued that only a Security Council resolution handing responsibility for Iraq's security and its political and economic future to the United Nations could secure the peace. "Piecing together a system with what already exists, adding foreign troops to coalition forces, does not seem to us the best way to guarantee security in Iraq," he said.

That said, French military planners are drawing up contingency plans to send troops to Iraq in the unlikely event that France is asked to help fulfill a United Nations mandate, senior French officials said. France could put together a force of 8,000 to 10,000 troops, they added.

France is in effect setting the bar for troop deployment so high that Washington will either not ask for French troops or will refuse to accept French conditions for sending them under a United Nations umbrella, officials suggested.

..

Neither France nor Germany is likely to agree to a large NATO role in Iraq as long as the United States is the main occupying power.

...

What he did say was powerful enough. "What we need is an international structure, an international mechanism to eliminate unilateralism and bring about multilateralism," he said. The goal, he added, is "that nobody feels sidelined, marginalized, humiliated."

At the Group of 8 economic summit in France in June, Mr. Bush assured Mr. Chirac that it was not American policy to be hostile toward France, and he blamed the news media for exaggerating problems.

However, shortly afterward, no American officers above the rank of colonel attended the Paris Air Show in June, and there were no demonstration flights by American warplanes, all on Mr. Rumsfeld's orders.
Yes, and the Freedomfries were made up from the media only too
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Old 07-29-2003, 07:52 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly
who exactly is deeming these lives expendable?[/B]
Of course no one is saying that, or making a list, but it does seem like they expect to lose a certain number and aren't really surprised or upset over them. That's what makes me think they predicted a certain 'number' of how many 'sacrifices' will be acceptable to the public before we start to raise hell, and that's what I mean by 'expendable.' They seem so matter of fact when they say 'we are grateful for their sacrifice.' So some family in Iowa or North Carolina loses someone very special, give them a folded flag, call it a sacrifice and that's how it goes. I can't accept that. It was bad enough the ones lost in the original battle to Baghadad, but these sneak attack victims now seem like total wastes. I've seen their families say the same thing on the news, and that they were 'forgotten' and 'unappreciated.'

Maybe it's because I don't think it was a good enough reason. Of course Saddam is evil and I hate him! But it wasn't for us to say, and it wasn't for our people to die in this cause. I've had it with the 'world's policemen' job. It is bad people suffer and die in other countries, so does someone from here with nothing to do with it have to suffer and die too to make it okay? It's NEVER okay.
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Old 07-29-2003, 09:01 AM   #12
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I know that most of you don't like Bush in this forum. However, I believe that it bothers him EVERY time we lose a life.

Our military is 100% volunteers. When you sign up, you know there is a risk involved. It is very sad to see these young men dying in Iraq. However, when they signed up for the military, they knew there was a possibility that they would go to war and in wars, people get killed.

It's an ugly business, there's no doubt about that. But the sooner we find Saddam, the sooner these men and women can come home.
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Old 07-29-2003, 09:23 AM   #13
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Quote:
I know that most of you don't like Bush in this forum. However, I believe that it bothers him EVERY time we lose a life.
right, i don't like bush but i'm sure that he cares about it and it does more than bother him.

I know that you have 100% volunteer armee (well it's not that volunterely if you do it because you are bancrupt and there is no other job you can find and you have to feed your family, but that's another story)..

I don't think that the resistence will break down if Saddam is found. Lots of people (even US military people) say that it is not just saddams followers who fight against the US in Iraq. There are Iraqi "liberty fighters" who want a free iraq, not controlled by any big brother, there are the followers of al-quaida who are happy now that this despot who didn't believe in allah is gone, they want to turn that country into a cleric dictatorship - and maybe there are even more groups who fight against the US occupation

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Old 07-29-2003, 10:11 AM   #14
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I might be sort of late on this, but I'm moving this thread to War.
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Old 07-29-2003, 05:31 PM   #15
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first - i want to say that the accusation that the military, president, or the american people are not hurt or saddened by military losses is ludicrous. maybe you're getting the sense that the government doesn't care because it's just sorta brought up in the news like "another casualty in iraq today..." but i sincerely doubt that the president is just like "well...that's slot 102 filled in our 200 expected dead, we need to start being more careful."

i'm not the biggest bush fan, but i'm not about to say he is inhumane, i'm sure that he is saddened when he hears of our military personnel dying in the field.

Quote:
originally posted by leeloo
I've seen their families say the same thing on the news, and that they were 'forgotten' and 'unappreciated.'
i don't understand what you mean by this - can you elaborate please?

Quote:
originally posted by klaus
I know that you have 100% volunteer armee (well it's not that volunterely if you do it because you are bancrupt and there is no other job you can find and you have to feed your family, but that's another story)..
i can see where you'd draw that conclusion, but there are other branches of the military to go into if you're only volunteering because of economic situation. peace corps is a good example. do we still have CCC (civilian conservation corps)? does anyone know that for sure? the CCC basically brought the US out of depression, employing all the people without jobs, shipping them around the country to make highways and dams and whatnots.
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