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Old 12-19-2007, 08:51 PM   #16
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The Man of the Year...

or better still the people of the year,

should be the ones eating rice once a day or struggling for any meal to keep them alive.
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Old 12-19-2007, 09:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




it's not a "coolest person of the year" or "awesomest person of the year" or "most politicized speech before congress of the year."

it's the person who's had the most influence on world events. Stalin has been Time's person of the year. it's not an endorsement. it's a statement of fact.
I understand that. Obviously the person of the year doesnt have to be a "good" person. I'm not saying Putin is a bad choice. I'm just saying personally, I'd pick Petreaus. He's completely turned Iraq around.

Smart move not picking Gore, though. I think they'd receive too much criticism.
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Old 12-19-2007, 09:18 PM   #18
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Smart move not picking Gore, though. I think they'd receive too much criticism.
Ya, I was thinking that too. As much as I expected it and as much as I was disappoionted he didn't win now that I think about it, it would be Gore overkill. Too many awards, too many accolades and it's "enough already" ... they almost become meaningless.
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Old 12-19-2007, 09:18 PM   #19
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Originally posted by 2861U2
I'm just saying personally, I'd pick Petreaus.
He might be your person of the year.

But if Time magazine picked him -
from a World view
that would just be silly.
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Old 12-19-2007, 09:28 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

I'm just saying personally, I'd pick Petreaus. He's completely turned Iraq around.
I'd give it to Brett Favre. He deserves it the most. He completely turned the Packers around this season.
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Old 12-19-2007, 09:29 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2
He's completely turned Iraq around.
That's a very debatable statement. Which is why he's not the person of the year.
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Old 12-19-2007, 09:38 PM   #22
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Originally posted by 2861U2
I understand that. Obviously the person of the year doesnt have to be a "good" person. I'm not saying Putin is a bad choice. I'm just saying personally, I'd pick Petreaus. He's completely turned Iraq around.
Our considerable political differences aside, I still don't think you can make a case for Petraeus as person of the year. As you mention, he's been involved in Iraq. That's one country, and not only is his influence there debatable (Muqtada al-Sadr strikes me as more influential), but his influence outside Iraq is pretty minimal. Putin's action's have broad implications on multiple continents. I think his selection as person of the year is good, even if it's not a nice one.
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Old 12-19-2007, 09:38 PM   #23
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That's a very debatable statement. Which is why he's not the person of the year.
Yeah, I haven't seen a COMPLETE turnaround. Maybe a 90 degree turn, but definately not a 180.
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Old 12-19-2007, 10:23 PM   #24
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am i the only one whos reminded of...

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Old 12-19-2007, 10:31 PM   #25
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Old 12-20-2007, 09:56 AM   #26
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Time magazine picks the most influential, not the most likeable. Putin isn't the most likeable man on the planet but he clearly has influence.
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Old 12-20-2007, 09:59 AM   #27
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Brett Favre


I think Bush said his person of the year is Petraeus

How about Larry Craig?

Or maybe McCain said that. I guess perhaps Mitt's unfamiliar with some of the standards they have for person of the year and some of the other choices they have made in the past.

WASHINGTON (CNN) — Count Republican Mitt Romney among those who aren't happy with Time Magazine's choice of Russian President Vladimir Putin for Person of the Year.

In an interview with CNN's Glen Beck, the presidential candidate called the choice "disgusting."

"You know, he imprisoned his political opponents. There have been a number of highly suspicious murders," Romney said on Beck's radio show. "He has squelched public dissent and free press. And to suggest that someone like that is the Man of the Year is really disgusting. I'm just appalled."

"Clearly General Petraeus is the person, or one of a few people, who would certainly merit that designation," the former Massachusetts governor added.

Rival presidential candidate John McCain also said Wednesday he disagreed with the choice.

“I noticed that Time Magazine made President Putin the Time Magazine ‘Man of the Year,’” McCain said, according to NBC. “I understand that probably, but my man of the year is one Gen. David Petraeus, our general who has brought success in Iraq.”
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:34 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


I'm just saying personally, I'd pick Petreaus. He's completely turned Iraq around.



lowered levels of violence in an nearly ethnically cleansed city with increased amounts of american troops doesn't really qualify as "completely turned Iraq around."

the surge was supposed to deliver on three points:

1. oil revenues
2. de-Baathification
3. local elections

the reduction in violence isn't even a first step, it's a means of being able to get to the first step into getting Iraq to be an operational country.

had Patraeus accomplished even one of these things, there might be an argument.
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:12 PM   #29
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but, anyway, Putin -- what's happened is that he's stabilized Russia, a country flush with new oil wealth and nukes, and turned it into a global power again.

it is no longer a unipolar world with the US far atop everything. under the stewardship of a good president, this can be a good thing (think Clinton). under the stewardship of an idiot and Darth Vader, this is a bad thing. but while Bush has been running around and drumming up evildoers to fight, the rest of the world's been realigning.
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:42 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




lowered levels of violence in an nearly ethnically cleansed city with increased amounts of american troops doesn't really qualify as "completely turned Iraq around."

the surge was supposed to deliver on three points:

1. oil revenues
2. de-Baathification
3. local elections

the reduction in violence isn't even a first step, it's a means of being able to get to the first step into getting Iraq to be an operational country.

had Patraeus accomplished even one of these things, there might be an argument.

Baghdad is NOT an ethnically cleansed city. Not even close. Iraq as the Iraq Study Group found last year that Iraq is still so ethnically mixed even in the north and south that partition as some advocate is simply not possible.

Iraqi deaths, although difficult to accurately estimate, have fallen dramatically since the start of the surge. According to www.icasualties.org , over 3,000 Iraqi's were killed in February 2007. So far this month, the number is 360. The flow of refugees out of Iraq has stopped and in some cases been reversed. While local elections have not occured yet, there has been political progress in getting Sunni tribes and groups to abandon the insurgency. The Iraq military and police forces are now providing the security for 9 of Iraq's 18 provinces. Oil production is up. The amount of electricity available to residents in Baghdad is 6 times what it was at the start of the year. US deaths from hostile fire were at 120 for the month of May are down to just 9 for the month of December. Although there are 11 days left in December, December may go down has the month with the lowest casualties, killed and wounded for the US military of the entire war to date.

Those are accomplishments that not even I would have predicted in such a small space of time, and Democrats like Murtha have now come forward to admit that the Surge is indeed working. The leading Democratic Candidates are not talking about Iraq anymore to the degree that they did before, and instead of calling for a withdrawal of all US combat forces by March 31, 2008, all the three leading contenders are open to having US troops in Iraq up into 2013.

Its likely that Oil Revenue sharing, De-Baathification and local elections will happen in 2008 and it will be interesting to hear the excuse then for why The President's policy in Iraq is not working.

Patraeus efforts over the past year are being felt in Iraq, the entire middle east, and the United States. Putin's impact is more isolated to Russia and the fact that Russia plays a spoiler on issues such as Iran and Kosovo is nothing new, nor is the fact of Russia benefiting from higher global energy prices. Living standards have improved in Russia, but the standard of living in Bosnia is still better.

Russian military strength is still a tiny shadow of what it once was during the days of the Soviet Union. The government in Moscow went from a country of 300 million and 6 million in the armed forces to just 143 million people and a total military of 1 million in just the past 15 years, largely due to the collapse of the Soviet Union. But even today, Russia's 143 million population continues to decline by 750,000 people per year and its projected that Russia could be down to just 135 million people by the year 2015. While Russia still retains the old Soviet nuclear force, the huge change in populaton and resources from the Soviet Union to just the Russian Federation and the Russian Federation's continued large annual population decline mean that Russia will never come close to having the global power that the Soviet Union had.
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