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Old 09-15-2007, 10:45 PM   #1
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Normal This literally terrified me.

Rod Parsley is a pretty well-known preacher to most of us who might be or have been involved in the evangelical circle in the past several years. I know that a lot of my family really admires him, and I used to. He started the Center for Moral Clarity a few years ago which is basically the new version of the Moral Majority. I recently came across him on TV and heard him talking about this https://www.centerformoralclarity.net/HateCrimes.aspx

That sent chills down my spine, so I had to check his website to find more info. The link I just gave talks about why all Christians should oppose this bill.

This is a link to more info. on said bill.

http://capwiz.com/cmc/issues/bills/?bill=9623216

I ask, how can someone call themselves a person who loves Jesus and oppose something like this? My heart is broken. I fail to see how this bill elevates any race/religion/gender etc. above another. In fact, one would have to have the comprehension and brain function of an amoeba to see any differently from that description. The link providing the reason for opposition is the most condescending thing I've seen lately. They say they're opposing this to keep everyone equal as the Constitution states. Yet, those of other religions, sexual orientations, political persuasions, etc. must be kept down and steamrolled over in the name of the almighty idol of morality. Actions speak a HELL of a lot louder than words, and these peoples actions refute their faith they champion with their lips. I just think Jesus is hurt right now by what people are doing in His name. How quickly we forget that the Jesus we're supposedly doing all this moralizing for was hated for his lack of morality, or at least morality as it was thought of by the religious establishment of His time. I just want this to stop because I don't know how much more non-Believers can take before they just give up on even thinking about reaching out for God...and that would be biggest tragedy possible.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:52 PM   #2
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I'm by no means an evangelical Christian, but I don't think, from a legal point of view, that hate legislation is necessarily the best or most correct means of dealing with these types of crimes.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:53 PM   #3
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I would oppose that bill for strictly secular reasons, namely in providing hate crime coverage for religiously motivated crimes and treating equally harmful actions as different on the basis of the victims race/gender/sexualitye etc.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:57 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I'm by no means an evangelical Christian, but I don't think, from a legal point of view, that hate legislation is necessarily the best or most correct means of dealing with these types of crimes.

I do agree that legislation is certainly not the best option. It's probably not even one of the "best" options The hearts and minds of people have to change before any real or lasting affect can be made in the areas of hate and prejudice. Yet, opposing a bill that is at least trying to protect people from these types of crimes through stiffer punishments is something that I just can't picture a person who calls themselves a follower of Christ doing.
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Old 09-15-2007, 11:06 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2isthebest

Yet, opposing a bill that is at least trying to protect people from these types of crimes through stiffer punishments is something that I just can't picture a person who calls themselves a follower of Christ doing.
I really doubt how protective it would be, because I'm really not sure there is any empirical evidence to suggest that hate crimes legislation would have any impact on deterrence.

Don't get me wrong, I think that organization is full of nutbags. But you can otherwise rationally oppose hate crimes legislation on secular grounds.
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Old 09-16-2007, 08:53 AM   #6
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Re: This literally terrified me.

Quote:
Originally posted by U2isthebest
I just want this to stop because I don't know how much more non-Believers can take before they just give up on even thinking about reaching out for God...and that would be biggest tragedy possible.
Why?
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Old 09-16-2007, 10:20 AM   #7
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Parsely is a hack, always has been a hack.

But I don't agree with this kind of legislation either. I'd prefer equality when it comes to the law. All crime is crime, regardless whether the person 'hated' you, or just wanted your wallet, or just was depraved.
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:05 AM   #8
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I don't understand.

There are laws against murder and yet murders are committed every day.

What good would a "hate crime" bill do? It won't stop the crimes, it will just be another useless law that will be broken left and right.

Besides, it's supposed to be a GOOD thing, right? so why would people be against it?

Could someone enlighten me?
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


I really doubt how protective it would be, because I'm really not sure there is any empirical evidence to suggest that hate crimes legislation would have any impact on deterrence.
what she said
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:27 AM   #10
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this guy is a wanker. his reasoning is downright illogical.

a) where is it stated on any hate crimes legislation that some lives are worth more than others?
b) FREE SPEECH?! he is worried about free speech? sorry bub, but your liberties end where my nose begins. basically he is saying that he wants to protect the right of extreme religious (though he is probably just thinking christian here) to discriminate against and beat up on people of the lgbtq community.

a damn moron. and i love how easy it is for him to talk about how wrong this is when he has probably never been the victim of a hate crime himself.

the fact of the matter is, regardless of what the bill of rights says, we may be CREATED equal, but we are not treated equal. sure, in an ideal society, there would not be any need for hate crimes legislation nor affirmative action. because we WOULD all be seen as and treated equally. but that's just not how it works. racism, sexism, etc. is still alive and well, and some people have made a point to target specific cultures, thus threatening our community as a whole. hate crimes legislation comes in because in some circumstances it isn't just about one individual against another. it is one against a community, which i consider to be an act of terrorism.

people in this day and are are using laws in the u.s. (in)justice system to carry out their racist, sexist, bigoted ideas. so in my mind, ANY sort of effort shown by the gov't that they take hate crimes seriously and are trying to ensure protection on communities (again it is not just individual here) who have been discriminated against in the past and present, is a good thing imho.
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:52 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
But I don't agree with this kind of legislation either. I'd prefer equality when it comes to the law. All crime is crime, regardless whether the person 'hated' you, or just wanted your wallet, or just was depraved.


i have really mixed feelings regarding hate crimes. they're like affirmative action, an inelegant way to address some real social injustices, but they open up a huge can of worms. the real bigotry is demonstrated by groups like the above when they think that some groups are more worthy of protection than others.

however, let me give an example. i just found out that one of my best friends was held up at gun point and robbed. it sucks. it happens. she's fine. now, what's the difference between that, and if someone pointed a gun in her face and said, "you fucking dyke, i'm going to fucking kill you and all of your dyke friends," and, worse, maybe beat her up a bit?

the difference is that the first was a crime against her and her person, the second is a crime against a group to which he assumed she belonged. so more than just one person is affected by this crime.

and this is where hate crimes legislation appears to have a place.

i'm not fully convinced, but i do find it more disturbing and, yes, "worse" when i found out that Matthew Shepperd was killed because he was gay, than if this were just some sick fucks who beat up a weaker kid. the end result is the same, but the effect upon a community is different.
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Old 09-17-2007, 10:24 AM   #12
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thank you, that's what i've been trying to say for awhile now whenever i speak of hate crimes legislation. only you put it much more eloquently.
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Old 09-17-2007, 10:51 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




i have really mixed feelings regarding hate crimes. they're like affirmative action, an inelegant way to address some real social injustices, but they open up a huge can of worms. the real bigotry is demonstrated by groups like the above when they think that some groups are more worthy of protection than others.

however, let me give an example. i just found out that one of my best friends was held up at gun point and robbed. it sucks. it happens. she's fine. now, what's the difference between that, and if someone pointed a gun in her face and said, "you fucking dyke, i'm going to fucking kill you and all of your dyke friends," and, worse, maybe beat her up a bit?

the difference is that the first was a crime against her and her person, the second is a crime against a group to which he assumed she belonged. so more than just one person is affected by this crime.

and this is where hate crimes legislation appears to have a place.

i'm not fully convinced, but i do find it more disturbing and, yes, "worse" when i found out that Matthew Shepperd was killed because he was gay, than if this were just some sick fucks who beat up a weaker kid. the end result is the same, but the effect upon a community is different.
I'm echoing Mia too in agreeing with you. That's my biggest problem with the opposition against hate crime legislation even though I fully agree with those who say legislation is far from the best option. Irvine put into words exactly what I'm trying to say.
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Old 09-17-2007, 10:58 AM   #14
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Re: Re: This literally terrified me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega


Why?
I'm not sure if you're asking why it might stop non-Believers from trying to reach out to God or why that would be a tragedy. I'll just try to answer generally. I want to preface this by saying I was referring to non-Believers who want to be believe. I know there are many that feel that they are perfectly content with their lack of faith and/or belief in God. I'm not referring to those people. They would have no interest in reaching out to God, and that's their right in this society. I was referring to non-Believers who still want a relationship with God, but are having a hard time reconciling His followers and the image and they have of Him in their minds. There's countless people I've met that don't believe because of those of us that claim to be Christians. That's sad. Jesus said our lives should draw people to Him, not make them run screaming in the other direction. It's a tragedy to me if even one person seeking God feels pushed away from Him because they only identify Him with His followers that teach hatred, judgement, bigotry, and self-righteousness.
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Old 09-17-2007, 11:07 AM   #15
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Ok, that clarifies a lot as I'm one of those who is content with their lack in faith, so I didn't quite get where the tragedy was.
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