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Old 11-24-2001, 08:27 AM   #16
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This thread is the very reason I have lost faith in U2 fans.

You are all so self-righteous. BLAH! I guarantee you that if you saw some woman on the street drugged out, you'd ignore her. Some of you might even think that she deserves what's coming to her. But none of you would actually stop to help her.

Those 700 men did something I could never do. However, I would say that 99% of them figured she was just another drugged out prostitute - like the hundreds of others they see every other day. The same hundreds of others that all of you ignore every day. Yet there you are, stating that you'd actually KILL those men. Some of you even state that you are in a "killing mood."

This is what U2 has "taught you?" What happened was terrible. I doubt this young lady will ever return to her previous healthy life. And I hope the men that did this crime are severely punished. But to prosecute 700 men for doing something that happens in your neighborhood every day while you ignore it is simply not right.
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Old 11-24-2001, 10:39 AM   #17
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I hate to say it, but dr. who is right. i see where everybody is coming from, most people's natural instinct is to severely punish these individuals who we assumed knew she was a young british tourist stolen and made prisoner. it's an unfair assumption. Whoever said we should not have equal rights, that's dispicable. it hurts to know you even said put that here. And wishing that 700 people got AIDS is even worse...it's unfathomable that someone is capable of wishing that on ONE other human, but 700!

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[This message has been edited by Lilly (edited 11-24-2001).]
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Old 11-24-2001, 04:23 PM   #18
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Nope. No apologies from me here. I have no qualms about destroying evil human beings. Never have, never will.
When you intentionally hurt an innocent person or animal, you surrender your rights. You are no longer human. You become nothing.
Perhaps some of those men did figure she was just another drugged up prostitute, i wasnt even specifically talking about them , but the ones who put her there and did this to her in the first place. No mercy for them.

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Look...look what you've done to me...You've made me poor and infamous, and I thank you...

My name is MISS MACPHISTO...I'm tired and i want to go HOME...

"Well you tell...Bonovista,that i said hello and that my codename is Belleview" - Bono before opening night of Anaheim Elevation concert
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Old 11-24-2001, 05:01 PM   #19
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I agree with DrWho (yet I feel a bit of self-righteousness in agreeing with it.)

As sick and evil as this whole thing was, I MUST refuse to cast the first stone. I MUST refuse to become the monster, so the monster will not hurt me.

I know NOTHING of these 700 men. I have NO right to judge. God... will do what is right. (and the Law will too) I must believe that, IF I am to consider myself a Christian. How can I believe that God would NOT be able to handle this, and so I would need to kill these men, and at the same time kill a part of my own soul.
I would kill to please my own self. To try to end the hate that is in my heart... yet this hate would not be quenched.

It IS a horrific Hell of a world out there... Who here honestly did NOT think that BEFORE they read this Post???
So do we add fuel to this fire?
Or do we turn to what IS good about this world, and become and spread what IS good about this world.

As for these men... I cant believe that not ONE single man here has never gone to a prostitute at least once... or to a topless bar... or any man or woman has not purchased pornography.... or clicked onto a porn site.

The women (and men) all these industries use and abuse may NOT be sex slaves raped by 700 men, but yet they are still victims to some degree. And anyone who has taken any part in any of the above mentioned HAS then supported it.

MY hands are not clean. ( Never you mind why!) I have done some stupid and hurtful things in my life... to others and to myself.
By the Grace of God, I now have taken responsibility for them and have suffered the consequences... and have chosen to turn away from them.
I am as human as those 700 men... as Osama bin Laden... as Hitler... AND as human as that poor girl, may she find peace...and as MLK... Ghandi... Mother Teresa... and dare I say as human as the human side of that dear man who walked the earth 2000 years ago, and laughed, and loved, and chastised, and taught, and cried, and got angry, and felt fear and doubt, and overcame.

Just what the hell has U2 been singing about all these years then!????


Peace



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My love for you
It's in the things I do and say
If I wanna live I gotta
Die to myself someday.
Surrender.
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Old 11-24-2001, 05:46 PM   #20
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I understand literally everyone who has posted in response to this, but I don't think it's right to judge those who spoke in anger. Isn't that better than not caring at all?
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Old 11-24-2001, 07:33 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
Nope. No apologies from me here. I have no qualms about destroying evil human beings. Never have, never will.
When you intentionally hurt an innocent person or animal, you surrender your rights. You are no longer human. You become nothing.
Perhaps some of those men did figure she was just another drugged up prostitute, i wasnt even specifically talking about them , but the ones who put her there and did this to her in the first place. No mercy for them.

Some of you may remember that I have dealt with this on a very personal level. Not a Milky Way number like that but.........

I'm totally eye-to-eye with you M.M.

It would scare some of you if you saw the kind of "medieval" thoughts and ideas that ran through my head when I read the post.

I would not blink or hesitate. Let God judge me later.


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Old 11-25-2001, 07:01 AM   #22
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I see DrW's point. But dont agree with it. It isnt about self righteousness. Rape is not ever ignored by me. I never turn a blind eye to it. I am sorry that you are disgusted by the responses Dr Who or lost faith or whatever.

And u2 isn't about teaching anything. To me its just music. I dont learn life's lessons from an abstract lyric in a song, I know the words and music the band etc mean a lot more to many u2eys, but to take that and use it to back your arguments is not right, because it wont apply to everyone. I know this prolly wasnt even directed at me, ???, but think about the responses again Dr Who. They came about from the actions of those men, not out of some misguided judgement from failure of the 'U2 Principles'. That said, perhaps there is self righteousness in the replies. But is that wrong? When it comes from the digust of THIS act? It may be ignored in everyday life by folks, but this didnt pass them by, they responded with their own feelings. Sometimes too, we need to shut off. We'd all be emotional wrecks if we let every bad incident we hear of get to us.

I dont want to get your back up Dr Who. Im only reinstating all that you can most likey see for yourself anyway. But like me, your opinions are your own. So tis ok anyway.
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Old 11-25-2001, 11:31 AM   #23
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To hell with 'casting the first stone'! What sheer and utter rubbish! You speak as if you know everyone and how everyone views everybody else, well, ain't I luck to have met you, oh wise one.

Primarily, you don't know me and you don't know what my attitude is to 'drugged up' people, not that I have to justify myself to you, but I happen to be very well-acquainted with people who have suffered from such problems, something which has somehow altered my perspective, thank you kindly.

I don't think you are qualified enough to judge anyone on a superficial level, simply because you don't know their actions, and the way they think. HOWEVER, WE do know the actions of those 700 men, and the criminal mind behind the plot of using this poor girl, and I'm sorry, you don't have to be a pure soul to recognise that thats pretty disgusting. As to your analogy of 'casting the first stone', yes, I CAN cast the first stone, simplty because I've never forced a girl into prostitution and used her for my own selfish profit. No, I' m not perfect, but I'm not criminal either.

I've always believed that the 'first stone' argument as always there just to avoid making some crucial judgements. Its the kind of notion that would interrupt a trial and say; 'hey judge, we all make mistakes, let the defendant walk free!' What nonsense. I'm well aware that no one is perfect, but we depend on our judgements of what is right or wrong everyday, and you condemming us for acknowledging the brutality of such a deed is really uncalled for.

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Old 11-25-2001, 10:07 PM   #24
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Anthony,
I'm assuming your heated reply was for me.
I simply gave my opinion. I am entitled to it, as you are yours. I also tried to the best of my ability to use "I" and not "you all". I can only speak for myself, my beliefs, and my actions.
I did unfortunatley take a "you all" stand when I spoke of use of pornography and sexually oriented "businesses".
I apoligize for that.
I, myself, HAVE used pornography AND some of those businesses in the past. I, indeed, have felt guilty about it, for I felt that by doing this, I was supporting the degradation, and possible abuse of other human beings.
If you don't agree with me, fine.
As for "cast the first stone", it IS the teaching of Jesus the Christ according to the Gospel in the Holy Bible. It is for practicing Christians to consider as instruction from the Son of God, if they choose. IF one is not a Christian, then the point is moot! If the person calls him/herself a Christian but chooses not to believe in that teaching, then that is that person's choice.

I gave my opinion. Ignore it. Refuse it. Its your right.

Peace

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My love for you
It's in the things I do and say
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Die to myself someday.
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Old 11-26-2001, 07:50 AM   #25
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Actually, Trashcan, my heated view was not aimed towards you. You, as you stated, presented your view in a very respectful way, I have no beef with you. I didn't like dr.Who's tone, if I have to mention names. You I have no problem with, I think its quite noble of you to practice the teachings of Jesus Christ, I never had the incentive to do so, or the spine. Point being, I know you were merely stating your opinion; my comments were not towards you.

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Old 11-27-2001, 08:15 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by doctorwho:

You are all so self-righteous. BLAH! I guarantee you that if you saw some woman on the street drugged out, you'd ignore her. Some of you might even think that she deserves what's coming to her. But none of you would actually stop to help her.

Those 700 men did something I could never do. However, I would say that 99% of them figured she was just another drugged out prostitute - like the hundreds of others they see every other day. The same hundreds of others that all of you ignore every day. Yet there you are, stating that you'd actually KILL those men. Some of you even state that you are in a "killing mood."

Hmmm...let's all be civil here, ok people?

True, society is more often than not indifferent to drugged out people (seeing them on the streets, not helping them...). Yes, there's lots of horrible things happening to prostitutes-but i would never think that anyone had this kind of thing coming to him/her. No one deserves that.
Besides, what difference does it make whether they thought she was a regular prostitute? That doesn't make it any better.

I don't know what i would do if i saw a drugged out young person on the street. I would like to think i'd do something, but i can't be certain of it because i haven't been in that kind of situation.

But on the other hand, it is important to find out criminal cases like these as much as possible and prosecute the criminals as much as possible. It is important to talk about these things, not only for the victim itself, but also to help prevent others being kidnapped, drugged etc...it's worth it even if it only saves one human being.

As for the punishment...things like these make me doubt that we humans have an apropriate punishment.
Killing them? I don't believe in the "eye for an eye" logic (plus who are we, society, to say who's to die?), it won't make the girl feel any better, it won't prevent similar crimes from happening, and i don't think any of those "men" would feel any remorse.
I think prison for life is the answer. Not only can the society keep of a criminal of the streets, but there's also a chance for him to start feel guilty. Maybe the whole thing can bring out something good and that person can change for the better.




[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 11-27-2001).]
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Old 11-29-2001, 09:18 PM   #27
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If I were that girl...Knowing that those creeps who did that to me had suffered great pain or had even been killed...WOULD indeed make me feel better.
Its nice to feel concern and kindness torwards all living things and not wish them ill will, but no sympathy for the devil. Not from me anyway. I have witnessed and been the victim of too much violence to ever feel that way.
Sure there are exceptions, some people who have commited serious crimes can indeed be given second chances, but i dont think that is the case here.

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Look...look what you've done to me...You've made me poor and infamous, and I thank you...

My name is MISS MACPHISTO...I'm tired and i want to go HOME...

"Well you tell...Bonovista,that i said hello and that my codename is Belleview" - Bono before opening night of Anaheim Elevation concert
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Old 11-29-2001, 09:59 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by doctorwho:
You are all so self-righteous. BLAH! I guarantee you that if you saw some woman on the street drugged out, you'd ignore her. Some of you might even think that she deserves what's coming to her. But none of you would actually stop to help her.But to prosecute 700 men for doing something that happens in your neighborhood every day while you ignore it is simply not right.
Bullcrap! If I saw ANY woman, drugged out or otherwise, being attacked, I woul do anything I could to help her! How can you say we wouldn't?? Do you know any of us personally?
Secondly, you don't know my neighborhood. That stuff does NOT go on in my neighborhood.
You see, by coming down on those whom you call "self-righteous", you are being even more self-righteous.

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Old 11-29-2001, 10:15 PM   #29
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Hear hear, 80sU2isBest! Dash it all!

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Old 12-01-2001, 12:12 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
If I were that girl...Knowing that those creeps who did that to me had suffered great pain or had even been killed...WOULD indeed make me feel better.
Its nice to feel concern and kindness torwards all living things and not wish them ill will, but no sympathy for the devil. Not from me anyway. I have witnessed and been the victim of too much violence to ever feel that way.
Sure there are exceptions, some people who have commited serious crimes can indeed be given second chances, but i dont think that is the case here.

NONE!!!!!
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