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Old 07-25-2007, 05:53 PM   #91
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The tyranny of democracy would be the countepoint, I would take liberty over democracy.
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Old 07-25-2007, 06:18 PM   #92
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anarchy?
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Old 07-25-2007, 07:08 PM   #93
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Despotism.
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Old 07-25-2007, 07:27 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Despotism.
Are you saying you prefer this?
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Old 07-25-2007, 07:29 PM   #95
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However in terms of consensuality as self aware creatures a rational nontheistic construction of rights and liberties may be formed in the absence of some sort of universal law.
How would you have self aware creatures arrive at a consensus?
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Old 07-25-2007, 07:31 PM   #96
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




are all points of view equally supported by logic, fact, and reason?

or do we give all opinions equal weight regardless of how little they might employ logic, fact, and reason?


Irvine511,

That's up to you. I'm just saying it's a good idea to give all points of view on an issue a good read and study.

For me, it breaks down to what you decide will be the final authority.

Your personal opinion or the source of your faith.
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Old 07-25-2007, 08:03 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Are you saying you prefer this?
I am saying that democracy can lead to bad ends, and that liberty can be achieved without it, not that I support despotism.
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Old 07-25-2007, 08:05 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


How would you have self aware creatures arrive at a consensus?
We do it all the time, we abide by the law, pay taxes with the expecation that we are not going to have crimes commited against us and that we enjoy the benefits of government.
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Old 07-25-2007, 08:13 PM   #99
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse
Irvine511,

That's up to you. I'm just saying it's a good idea to give all points of view on an issue a good read and study.

For me, it breaks down to what you decide will be the final authority.

Your personal opinion or the source of your faith.
You don't think he's had to deal with the Bible quite a bit?

Any Bible argument here will most likely involve, for the most part, people who have heard it before.

And the most debatable Biblical opinions are the ones based on misinterpretations.
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:15 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
How would you have self aware creatures arrive at a consensus?
In practice that is, in fact, what the framers of the Constitution did. They may have seen the Declaration's appeal to the "self-evident truths" of divinely endowed inalienable rights to life, liberty and "pursuit of happiness" as a necessary starting point. (Keep in mind, even back in England it was less than a century since the 'Glorious Revolution' resolved the political implications of that "truth" once and for all; while for the colonies, it was as if this had never happened, so the significance of declaring "self-evident" what it enabled was likely quite fresh in their minds.) But nothing much about the form of the resulting polity follows from that rather vague and lofty-sounding principle; to account for that, you'd need to look to the framers' key intellectual influences--the English Bill of Rights, the Constitution of the Dutch Republic, Locke's Two Treatises of Government, Montesquieu's Spirit of Laws, and assorted other works on republicanism (including some of their own). That is, they engaged in rational debate over ideas drawn from existing enshrined customs of their own cultural milieu--more often ones born from bloody power struggles between monarchs and parliaments, merchants and aristocrats, established churches and religious minorities than from any alleged revelations of "universal law" acquired through "pure" reason or faith.
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:27 PM   #101
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse




Irvine511,

That's up to you. I'm just saying it's a good idea to give all points of view on an issue a good read and study.

For me, it breaks down to what you decide will be the final authority.

Your personal opinion or the source of your faith.


i'm not going to give much weight to perspectives that are demonstrably false. saying that black people are criminals, women are stupid, and gays are immoral are not points of view that i have any time for. i draw no authority on this other than my own eyes, ears, experience, and conscience. likewise, i'm not going to give much weight to the opinion that the earth is 4,000 years old, that there are civilizations living below the earth's crust, or that the sun revolves around the earth.

none of these have anything to do with opinion vs. faith. they have everything to do with logic, reason, and fact.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:25 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

That is, they engaged in rational debate over ideas drawn from existing enshrined customs of their own cultural milieu--more often ones born from bloody power struggles between monarchs and parliaments, merchants and aristocrats, established churches and religious minorities than from any alleged revelations of "universal law" acquired through "pure" reason or faith.
Yolland, for the most part I agree with you.

However, do you think such a consensus is possible in the era of multi-culturalism? This examples demonstrates a consensus reached by people of a common background, education, customs...etc. I wonder how possible it is to reach such s consensus between people of radically different backgrounds, educations, customs...etc.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:39 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Yolland, for the most part I agree with you.

However, do you think such a consensus is possible in the era of multi-culturalism? This examples demonstrates a consensus reached by people of a common background, education, customs...etc. I wonder how possible it is to reach such s consensus between people of radically different backgrounds, educations, customs...etc.
It seems to me we're finding this out right now in this melting pot called America.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:47 AM   #104
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Did the person ever write the post that he/she was researching and working on at home and work -- someone mentioned it was like waiting for Harry Potter -- Harry showed up, but did the post? Please help, my eyelids are getting heavy and I am curious to read it.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:55 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by hardyharhar


It seems to me we're finding this out right now in this melting pot called America.
Very true. What is your verdict? Has a consensus been reached? If not, can it possibly be reached through rational dialogue? (I hope so, but I have my doubts).
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