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Old 07-25-2007, 01:22 PM   #76
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Originally posted by Irvine511
but no one claims that the constitution or greek philosophy are inerrant expressions of Divine will.
The Constitution can be amended, yes, but it would be wrong to say that the presumptions about human beings underpinning it are based on reason alone. Can you prove empirically that we possess inalienable human rights?
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:44 PM   #77
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The Constitution can be amended, yes, but it would be wrong to say that the presumptions about human beings underpinning it are based on reason alone. Can you prove empirically that we possess inalienable human rights?


i'd consider the Constitution/DOI perhaps the culminating documents of the Age of Reason and logical expressions that buttress what might be termed faith-based beliefs. and there seems to me to be a great big chasm in attitude between a document written by humans that expresses their inalienable human rights versus a book that humans assert was written by God that tells them they have inalienable human rights.

and i don't see anyone insisting upon the inerrancy of these documents, or others. and, in the context of this discussion, no one takes the "spirit" of the Bible in the way that you -- and i -- take the "spirit" of ancient philosophy or Heidigger or the Constitution. when we're talking about notions of sin in here, we've had assertions based upon specific scriptural passages that are used to create a very literal picture of Hell. because it comes from an inerrant source.
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Old 07-25-2007, 02:29 PM   #78
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Yes...I wasn't making a case for Biblical literalism, much less for the Bible as a legislative source; just pointing out that the argument for democracy from natural law (which is the source of our concept of inalienable human rights; the utilitarian Bentham famously derided it as "nonsense on stilts") also relies on a taken-for-granted absolute. The concept proper comes from English common law via social contract theory, though, not from the Bible itself.
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Old 07-25-2007, 02:43 PM   #79
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sorry, i know this isn't part of the discussion, but i had to look up more about Jay Bakker. dude is HOT! He gives me hope for Christianity too



thanks for sharing Britt!
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:18 PM   #80
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sorry, i know this isn't part of the discussion, but i had to look up more about Jay Bakker. dude is HOT! He gives me hope for Christianity too



thanks for sharing Britt!
Down girl...he's married!
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:23 PM   #81
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:25 PM   #82
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I'm avaliable.



Wanna move to Vermont?
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:36 PM   #83
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let's go!!!

as long as you won't be offended by my posters of Jay Bakker and Bono adorning every inch of wallspace.

that guy is really really great. is he traveling and giving talks? i'd love to meet him or hear him speak.
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:38 PM   #84
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let's go!!!

as long as you won't be offended by my posters of Jay Bakker and Bono adorning every inch of wallspace.

that guy is really really great. is he traveling and giving talks? i'd love to meet him or hear him speak.

He is. He's mainly in NYC right now though because his wife is in medical school at NYU. He, *erm* actually spoke in Virginia in April...
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:39 PM   #85
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Is here anyone with a huge pack of tissues?
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:43 PM   #86
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Is here anyone with a huge pack of tissues?
Mia lost the love of her life....or the love of her last 3 hours if you prefer.


She'll live.
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:48 PM   #87
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

come back, Jay, come back! Virginia NEEDS you.


oooh...do you know who his agent is? I booked events last year. Maybe...
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:52 PM   #88
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

come back, Jay, come back! Virginia NEEDS you.

He won't be able to stay away from you forever...


Hey, y'know since we ARE planning a visit to NYC for the next tour, we should probably stay through Sunday and take a visit to Brooklyn....



http://www.revolutionnyc.com/speaking.htm
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Old 07-25-2007, 04:24 PM   #89
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Originally posted by yolland

The Constitution can be amended, yes, but it would be wrong to say that the presumptions about human beings underpinning it are based on reason alone. Can you prove empirically that we possess inalienable human rights?
No, that is impossible to do. However in terms of consensuality as self aware creatures a rational nontheistic construction of rights and liberties may be formed in the absence of some sort of universal law.
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Old 07-25-2007, 05:14 PM   #90
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No, that is impossible to do. However in terms of consensuality as self aware creatures a rational nontheistic construction of rights and liberties may be formed in the absence of some sort of universal law.


i agree, and it would remain rooted in the tangible and real and human, thus possessing the possibility of it being wrong.

also, as a bit of an aside, i think we can assuredly see that the assumption of inalienable human rights and the democracy that flows from it is as culturally relative as anything else. if Iraq has taught us nothing it's that democracy doesn't seem to be the natural state of human beings.
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