A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
The tyranny of democracy would be the countepoint, I would take liberty over democracy.
A_Wanderer said:Despotism.
A_Wanderer said:However in terms of consensuality as self aware creatures a rational nontheistic construction of rights and liberties may be formed in the absence of some sort of universal law.
Irvine511 said:
are all points of view equally supported by logic, fact, and reason?
or do we give all opinions equal weight regardless of how little they might employ logic, fact, and reason?
I am saying that democracy can lead to bad ends, and that liberty can be achieved without it, not that I support despotism.AEON said:
Are you saying you prefer this?
We do it all the time, we abide by the law, pay taxes with the expecation that we are not going to have crimes commited against us and that we enjoy the benefits of government.AEON said:
How would you have self aware creatures arrive at a consensus?
the iron horse said:Irvine511,
That's up to you. I'm just saying it's a good idea to give all points of view on an issue a good read and study.
For me, it breaks down to what you decide will be the final authority.
Your personal opinion or the source of your faith.
In practice that is, in fact, what the framers of the Constitution did. They may have seen the Declaration's appeal to the "self-evident truths" of divinely endowed inalienable rights to life, liberty and "pursuit of happiness" as a necessary starting point. (Keep in mind, even back in England it was less than a century since the 'Glorious Revolution' resolved the political implications of that "truth" once and for all; while for the colonies, it was as if this had never happened, so the significance of declaring "self-evident" what it enabled was likely quite fresh in their minds.) But nothing much about the form of the resulting polity follows from that rather vague and lofty-sounding principle; to account for that, you'd need to look to the framers' key intellectual influences--the English Bill of Rights, the Constitution of the Dutch Republic, Locke's Two Treatises of Government, Montesquieu's Spirit of Laws, and assorted other works on republicanism (including some of their own). That is, they engaged in rational debate over ideas drawn from existing enshrined customs of their own cultural milieu--more often ones born from bloody power struggles between monarchs and parliaments, merchants and aristocrats, established churches and religious minorities than from any alleged revelations of "universal law" acquired through "pure" reason or faith.AEON said:How would you have self aware creatures arrive at a consensus?
the iron horse said:
Irvine511,
That's up to you. I'm just saying it's a good idea to give all points of view on an issue a good read and study.
For me, it breaks down to what you decide will be the final authority.
Your personal opinion or the source of your faith.
yolland said:
That is, they engaged in rational debate over ideas drawn from existing enshrined customs of their own cultural milieu--more often ones born from bloody power struggles between monarchs and parliaments, merchants and aristocrats, established churches and religious minorities than from any alleged revelations of "universal law" acquired through "pure" reason or faith.
AEON said:
Yolland, for the most part I agree with you.
However, do you think such a consensus is possible in the era of multi-culturalism? This examples demonstrates a consensus reached by people of a common background, education, customs...etc. I wonder how possible it is to reach such s consensus between people of radically different backgrounds, educations, customs...etc.
hardyharhar said:
It seems to me we're finding this out right now in this melting pot called America.
the iron horse said:
I'm just saying it's a good idea to give all points of view on an issue a good read and study.
BWU2Buffs said:Did the person ever write the post that he/she was researching and working on at home and work -- someone mentioned it was like waiting for Harry Potter -- Harry showed up, but did the post? Please help, my eyelids are getting heavy and I am curious to read it.
Ormus said:
It's me who's supposed to write it, and, no, I haven't finished it yet. My apologies.
To give you an idea, this week at work has been rather difficult, and I'm writing bits of it after very long days at work. If I had known that this week was going to be so awful, I wouldn't have hyped everyone up like that.
To be realistic, probably the earliest anyone can expect it is this weekend, so feel free to rest up!