This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

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A_Wanderer said:
However in terms of consensuality as self aware creatures a rational nontheistic construction of rights and liberties may be formed in the absence of some sort of universal law.
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How would you have self aware creatures arrive at a consensus?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

Irvine511 said:




are all points of view equally supported by logic, fact, and reason?

or do we give all opinions equal weight regardless of how little they might employ logic, fact, and reason?
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Irvine511,

That's up to you. I'm just saying it's a good idea to give all points of view on an issue a good read and study.

For me, it breaks down to what you decide will be the final authority.

Your personal opinion or the source of your faith.
 
AEON said:


How would you have self aware creatures arrive at a consensus?
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We do it all the time, we abide by the law, pay taxes with the expecation that we are not going to have crimes commited against us and that we enjoy the benefits of government.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

the iron horse said:
Irvine511,

That's up to you. I'm just saying it's a good idea to give all points of view on an issue a good read and study.

For me, it breaks down to what you decide will be the final authority.

Your personal opinion or the source of your faith.
Click to expand...

You don't think he's had to deal with the Bible quite a bit?

Any Bible argument here will most likely involve, for the most part, people who have heard it before.

And the most debatable Biblical opinions are the ones based on misinterpretations.
 
AEON said:
How would you have self aware creatures arrive at a consensus?
Click to expand...
In practice that is, in fact, what the framers of the Constitution did. They may have seen the Declaration's appeal to the "self-evident truths" of divinely endowed inalienable rights to life, liberty and "pursuit of happiness" as a necessary starting point. (Keep in mind, even back in England it was less than a century since the 'Glorious Revolution' resolved the political implications of that "truth" once and for all; while for the colonies, it was as if this had never happened, so the significance of declaring "self-evident" what it enabled was likely quite fresh in their minds.) But nothing much about the form of the resulting polity follows from that rather vague and lofty-sounding principle; to account for that, you'd need to look to the framers' key intellectual influences--the English Bill of Rights, the Constitution of the Dutch Republic, Locke's Two Treatises of Government, Montesquieu's Spirit of Laws, and assorted other works on republicanism (including some of their own). That is, they engaged in rational debate over ideas drawn from existing enshrined customs of their own cultural milieu--more often ones born from bloody power struggles between monarchs and parliaments, merchants and aristocrats, established churches and religious minorities than from any alleged revelations of "universal law" acquired through "pure" reason or faith.
 
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

the iron horse said:




Irvine511,

That's up to you. I'm just saying it's a good idea to give all points of view on an issue a good read and study.

For me, it breaks down to what you decide will be the final authority.

Your personal opinion or the source of your faith.
Click to expand...



i'm not going to give much weight to perspectives that are demonstrably false. saying that black people are criminals, women are stupid, and gays are immoral are not points of view that i have any time for. i draw no authority on this other than my own eyes, ears, experience, and conscience. likewise, i'm not going to give much weight to the opinion that the earth is 4,000 years old, that there are civilizations living below the earth's crust, or that the sun revolves around the earth.

none of these have anything to do with opinion vs. faith. they have everything to do with logic, reason, and fact.
 
yolland said:

That is, they engaged in rational debate over ideas drawn from existing enshrined customs of their own cultural milieu--more often ones born from bloody power struggles between monarchs and parliaments, merchants and aristocrats, established churches and religious minorities than from any alleged revelations of "universal law" acquired through "pure" reason or faith.
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Yolland, for the most part I agree with you.

However, do you think such a consensus is possible in the era of multi-culturalism? This examples demonstrates a consensus reached by people of a common background, education, customs...etc. I wonder how possible it is to reach such s consensus between people of radically different backgrounds, educations, customs...etc.
 
AEON said:


Yolland, for the most part I agree with you.

However, do you think such a consensus is possible in the era of multi-culturalism? This examples demonstrates a consensus reached by people of a common background, education, customs...etc. I wonder how possible it is to reach such s consensus between people of radically different backgrounds, educations, customs...etc.
Click to expand...

It seems to me we're finding this out right now in this melting pot called America.
 
Did the person ever write the post that he/she was researching and working on at home and work -- someone mentioned it was like waiting for Harry Potter -- Harry showed up, but did the post? Please help, my eyelids are getting heavy and I am curious to read it.
 
hardyharhar said:


It seems to me we're finding this out right now in this melting pot called America.
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Very true. What is your verdict? Has a consensus been reached? If not, can it possibly be reached through rational dialogue? (I hope so, but I have my doubts).
 
I'd say that considering how polarized we are currently, and the fact we haven't had another revolution yet, means there is at least a consensus on trying to move forward despite our current difficulties. Who can say what the outcome will be, but I think most people truly want the same thing. Their families to be safe and have food to eat. And I think this is the same anywhere on earth. If people felt these two basic needs of theirs were important to the rest of the world, the odds of so many turning to radicalism are diminished. And I definitely feel a consensus in this country and most others could be reached committing to something like this if we felt it would ease global tensions.

At least I would hope so. :eyebrow:

Probably not what the original question was, but this is where it took me :wink:
 
Can you give an example of a significant US voting bloc today which rejects the authority of the Constitution, the form of the government it maps out, or the procedures by which it operates?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

the iron horse said:

I'm just saying it's a good idea to give all points of view on an issue a good read and study.
Click to expand...

Then please do so, drive by posts don't add much to anything...
 
BWU2Buffs said:
Did the person ever write the post that he/she was researching and working on at home and work -- someone mentioned it was like waiting for Harry Potter -- Harry showed up, but did the post? Please help, my eyelids are getting heavy and I am curious to read it.
Click to expand...

It's me who's supposed to write it, and, no, I haven't finished it yet. My apologies.

To give you an idea, this week at work has been rather difficult, and I'm writing bits of it after very long days at work. If I had known that this week was going to be so awful, I wouldn't have hyped everyone up like that.

To be realistic, probably the earliest anyone can expect it is this weekend, so feel free to rest up! ;)
 
Ormus said:


It's me who's supposed to write it, and, no, I haven't finished it yet. My apologies.

To give you an idea, this week at work has been rather difficult, and I'm writing bits of it after very long days at work. If I had known that this week was going to be so awful, I wouldn't have hyped everyone up like that.

To be realistic, probably the earliest anyone can expect it is this weekend, so feel free to rest up! ;)
Click to expand...

That long?:grumpy:
 
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