This could turn into another Vietnam : Former Australian PM - Malcolm Fraser - U2 Feedback

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Old 04-08-2004, 11:30 AM   #1
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This could turn into another Vietnam : Former Australian PM - Malcolm Fraser

well dont quote me

but a former prime minister of australia has suggested that this whole 'post war' guerilla warfare is very reminiscent of the events which occurred in Vietnam in the 60s. In that the U.S thought they had won, but their numbers got picked off one by one. and the toll just mounts in the end.

now the whole consideration of sending in more numbers to combat this?

the whole talk of george dubya saying that there will be a handover back to the Iraqi people on June 30 is almost as optimistic as the city of Athens thinking they will be ready for the Olympics this year

i.e the Iraqis, the true extremists knew they werent going to win the 'War' when the allied forces charged through Iraq, but they waited until the war had ended, and picked off the soldiers.

the sad thing out of all this is Iraq could become really unstable and a rabid breeding ground for terrorists. and what could really suck is the countries that initiated the war, they will need to keep sending in more troops to try to 'fix' this, and we could have a bigger mess than it started out to be, because more people will die.

another former defense minister in australia quoted that : "the U.S and its allies jumped the U.N security council, so they are technically the invaders, and have unlawfully instigated this war"


any pro war or 'support the troops' people will feel upset over these comments im sure

but, im just the messenger!


all i can say is this is a nice mess, im not going to like how this is going to be resolved (if its going to be resolved at all!), but i hope George Bush, Tony Blair and Donald Rumsfeld are enjoying wallowing in the cess pool they've created
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Old 04-09-2004, 10:07 AM   #2
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if people could make accurate predictions, im sure we'd never have these messes in the first place. speaking of 'could have, should have, would have' is nice in hindsight and easy in foresight to get some media attention.

but who knows really.
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Old 04-10-2004, 09:02 AM   #3
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We only know two things for sure
1) There are no weaponized WMD's in Iraq now (this does not eliminate the possibility of them being shipped off to another country like saddams planes before gulf war 1)
2) If we leave Iraq to its own devices there is no force that will take over the country and govern it like the north vietnamese in vietnam, there is only anarchy and terrorists and after what we learnt from afghanistan leaving places like this will give you blowback, and in this case blowback will be as bad as a mushroom cloud i.e. wake up to hundreds of thousands dead in a terrorist attack.

This leaves us with the logical conclusion, Iraq must suceed. We must get to the deadline, after July the Iraqi's may request a UN resolution and the international community can put aside its differences with washington and we can create a real international coalition. Iraq is not vietnam, somalia or lebanon until we pull out with the job unfinished.

To paraphrase Churchilll; Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.

We are on the brink of sucess and we must not throw away all that progress because of fear of history repeating. We must do the job right and have an achievement to be proud of, a democratic and free Iraq.
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Old 04-10-2004, 06:13 PM   #4
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A_Wanderer,

"1) There are no weaponized WMD's in Iraq now"

Correction,

The coalition has yet to find WMD in Iraq. Iraq is a very large country and WMD could be hidden or buried just about anywhere. Because of that fact, it is incorrect to state that there are no WMD in Iraq.
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Old 04-10-2004, 09:09 PM   #5
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We will see, I know that Saddam had an operational program all through the 90's while he obfuscated the UNSCOM inspectors and that in '98 and after he allmost certainly continued it. In the very long lead up to war there was enough time to destroy, export or hide any weaponized materials. Its also important to remember this stuff has a shelf life and most of his stocks would have been practically useless anyway. This leaves him with the weapons programs which did exist and was a threat to the world nontheless. I just dont think that we will find any weapons and the absence of these weapons one year on and the gradual acceptance of this fact by the coalition does damage the legitimacy of the invasion.

This is not to say he wasn't a threat that had to have been dealt with. The sanctions were doing more harm than good and we can say for certain that if he was left in power for another 5 years he would have gotten his hands on even more dangerous materials. I will just clarify, The war was right in my opinion, the coalition has made a few dangerous mistakes (such as disbanding the entire Iraqi army leading to the power vaacum that created the militias) and if we think in terms of months and years Iraq is moving forward to a safe and free future.
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Old 04-11-2004, 02:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
We will see, I know that Saddam had an operational program all through the 90's while he obfuscated the UNSCOM inspectors and that in '98 and after he allmost certainly continued it. In the very long lead up to war there was enough time to destroy, export or hide any weaponized materials. Its also important to remember this stuff has a shelf life and most of his stocks would have been practically useless anyway. This leaves him with the weapons programs which did exist and was a threat to the world nontheless. I just dont think that we will find any weapons and the absence of these weapons one year on and the gradual acceptance of this fact by the coalition does damage the legitimacy of the invasion.

This is not to say he wasn't a threat that had to have been dealt with. The sanctions were doing more harm than good and we can say for certain that if he was left in power for another 5 years he would have gotten his hands on even more dangerous materials. I will just clarify, The war was right in my opinion, the coalition has made a few dangerous mistakes (such as disbanding the entire Iraqi army leading to the power vaacum that created the militias) and if we think in terms of months and years Iraq is moving forward to a safe and free future.
Bottom line is that the Saddam failed to verifiably disarm. There is no way the coalition outside of Iraq can tell for sure if that has happened if Saddam does not fully cooperate.

The Stocks can be kept seperate from munitions for long storage until its time for their use. The clock or "shelf life" starts to run wants Bio/Chem Capable shells are filled with Anthrax, sarin or mustard gas etc.

Even then, such shells can remain capable for years. Accidents have occured with the disposal of chemical shells in the United States from the 1950s!

The fact is, that one could hide WMD weapons and material in Iraq in such a way that it would perhaps be impossible to ever find them. A thousand liters of Anthrax and 500 pounds of mustard gas can be stored in a very small area. Its harder to hide shells and missiles but still possible to do so.

In the end, the credibility of coalitions actions stands up, because the central case for military action was based on Saddam's failure to verifiably disarm.
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Old 04-12-2004, 12:04 AM   #7
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Agreed
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