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Old 06-20-2006, 09:38 AM   #16
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Originally posted by GibsonGirl


Thabo Mbeki is an absolute fool.




even scarier than Mbeki is the woman tipped to follow him - she's apparently a staunch supoprter of Mugabe and thinks what he's done with regards to land reclamation is wonderful and a plan she intends on following
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Old 06-20-2006, 09:59 AM   #17
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Originally posted by GibsonGirl



BTW, Jamila, it is extremely offensive to refer to it as "Apartheid Afrikaans" in any context. Extremely offensive. Not everyone who speaks Afrikaans is a black-hating-pitchfork-waving Boer. My surname and 50% of my family is as Afrikaaner as Pieter Willem Botha himself, and we think that apartheid was disgusting.
i'm not having a go at you here, i just want to try understand... but the way i see it is that Afrikaans was the language of the "oppressor" and therefore the language of apartheid, hence the governments insistance that the children learn in it.
whether its fair or not to afrikaaners now, its automatically recognised - and understandably so - as the apartheid language.

it may be offensive now to you as an non-racist afrikaaner, but only in the same way that i get offended when people presume beacuse i'm a white south african who grew up in apartheid that i'm racist and attempt bad accents and racist humour on me

it sucks but it is

as i say, i'm not picking on you obviously, i'm just curious to see your point of view... i'm english south african so i maybe don't have the same stigma attached to me that afrikaaners do
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Old 06-20-2006, 10:37 AM   #18
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No, I understand, digsy! No worries. Afrikaans certainly was the language of the oppressor, but the stigma that comes along with it to this day is terribly frustrating. Afrikaans was around before apartheid and it is still going strong today, but the only thing some foreigners can think of when they hear "Afrikaans" is apartheid. This is only the fault of the idiots who instated apartheid in the first place. Even still, in my experience, some foreigners grossly misjudge Afrikaaners moreso than English-speaking white South Africans, even if they didn't support apartheid. I was raised in English, like you, but because my father's an Afrikaaner and I have an Afrikaans surname, I'm immediately targeted as a racist by people who have very warped perceptions of South Africans. We're even targeted by our own people! I lived in the UAE for a little while when I was younger, and there was a black South African boy in my class. He called me a "disgusting little Boer" behind the teacher's back. I couldn't do a thing about it. So I suppose that's why it's so frustrating to me to always see people associating apartheid with Afrikaans and judging Afrikaaners based on that.


Jamila, when on earth did I attempt to "defame the sacrifice" of Soweto schoolchildren? I was responding to Harry Vest's post about Mbeki, not your articles. And yes, Jamila, Mbeki may have done some good things when he was younger, but so did Winnie Mandela. And we all know what became of Winnie Mandela.
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Old 06-20-2006, 10:54 AM   #19
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Originally posted by GibsonGirl
No, I understand, digsy! No worries. Afrikaans certainly was the language of the oppressor, but the stigma that comes along with it to this day is terribly frustrating. Afrikaans was around before apartheid and it is still going strong today, but the only thing some foreigners can think of when they hear "Afrikaans" is apartheid. This is only the fault of the idiots who instated apartheid in the first place. Even still, in my experience, some foreigners grossly misjudge Afrikaaners moreso than English-speaking white South Africans, even if they didn't support apartheid. I was raised in English, like you, but because my father's an Afrikaaner and I have an Afrikaans surname, I'm immediately targeted as a racist by people who have very warped perceptions of South Africans. We're even targeted by our own people! I lived in the UAE for a little while when I was younger, and there was a black South African boy in my class. He called me a "disgusting little Boer" behind the teacher's back. I couldn't do a thing about it. So I suppose that's why it's so frustrating to me to always see people associating apartheid with Afrikaans and judging Afrikaaners based on that.
i got ya and i understand all of that, thanks for explaining
unfortunately the stigma and the perceptions remain because many south africans, afrikaans or otherwise, insist on proving it on a daily basis

i almost got up and walked out of my best friends birthday breakfast a few months ago after her housemates spent the morning mocking the the black south african accent and the final straw came when, looking at the dirty dishes he commented "ja man, its times like this i miss my black"
luckily they left shortly after and i didn't have to try explain to my mate that i was leaving her birthday because her friends are racist bigots.
but i hear this sort of stuff all the time and not from old people who maybe just don't know better any more, but from young guys my age who grew up in the same transitional times i did and who really have no excuse.

and yes, this comes from both afrikaans and english because it was both who "benfited" under apartheid but i think because of the government at the time being afrikaans and because the extreme white power fundementalists like the AWB are afrikaans and guys like Eugene Terblanche exist, that people almost expect it from the afrikaaners... i know its a generalisation i've fallen prey to occasionally which i really try not to, but its hard when some people make such a habit of living up to it
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:01 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jamila


It would be great if comments in FYM could stick to intelligent discussion of the issues and articles posted.
Frankly, I'd like to thank digsy and gibson girl for making this thread interesting. What they have provided is intelligent discussion and can't be found on Yahoo's front page. As it turns out, there's more to the story than what you have declared "HISTORICAL FACT. " Personal experiences often contribute more to the discussion than a bland article.
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:28 AM   #21
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thanks wildhoney

if anyone wants an interesting read on the times of change in the early 90's in South Africa then i suggest a book called "the Bang Bang Club"

its written by 2 photographers who at the time were part of a group of 4 nicknamed The Bang Bang Club (or Paparazzi) who used to cover the violence and ongoings in the townships in the years leading up to the first free and fair elections in 94.

its not a dull history book and by no means is meant as an text book on life in South Africa and its history, but it is a personal and first hand account of the struggles that took place up to that point (and beyond) which ultimately resulted in the death of 2 of these 4 photographers as they covered the events that killed hundreds and hundreds more.
it gives a very unusual and uncomfortable view point of what was going on at the time - things i certanily don't remember reading about in the papers at the time!

anyway, its an interesting read regardless - i have a very worn copy i've read about 4 times which i love because i learn so much from it each time (i'm an embarrassment when it comes to knowledge on my own country ) and the photographs really are something to behold - sickening, angering and desperately tragic at the same time

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/046...Fencoding=UTF8

i can't recommend it highly enough, whether your south african or not
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:24 PM   #22
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Thanks digsy, I think I'll give that a try.
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Old 06-20-2006, 09:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways


Frankly, I'd like to thank digsy and gibson girl for making this thread interesting. What they have provided is intelligent discussion and can't be found on Yahoo's front page. As it turns out, there's more to the story than what you have declared "HISTORICAL FACT. " Personal experiences often contribute more to the discussion than a bland article.

I agree - personal experience are often more interesting than "bland" articles.

But I have found that to have too many opinions in this forum without a "bland" article to back you up (I don't think the articles about the children who died in the Soweto uprisings were bland if you read them) can get you into more arguments than when you have an objective source to reference to.



But if you want personal experiences - here are mine.


I have had personal friendships with people from South Africa from all racial backgrounds since the 1980's when I was organizing for the anti-apartheid student movement on my campus.

In this capacity, I went to MANY international organizing conferences where I met many ex-patriots from South Africa (including Prof. Dennis Brutus). Many of these folks I have lost contact with during the intervening years, but at least a dozen people and I still maintain correspondence.

Some ex-pats have returned to South Africa since the end of apartheid; others have stayed out of the country.


During the last seven years since I have become increasingly active in organizations dealing with extreme poverty and AIDS in Africa, I have come to meet and make friends with several new people from South Africa who have become some of my closest friends.


One person who I have brought up in several previous discussions here in FYM is a lovely woman from South Africa who I met at a Global AIDS conference in DC in 2003.


Her family has been devastated by HIV/AIDS - she has lost a brother and four of her seven children to AIDS.


She is now trying to send enough money back home to take care of her seventeen grandchildren who have lost at least one of their parents to AIDS - all on her nurse's salary!


I saw her earlier this year when I went to DC to see Bono speak and her pain is so palpable. All I could do was to listen to the sadness of her inner life and offer her my continued friendship.


This is part of my personal relationship with South Africa.

It is as honorable as anyone else's.


I have met the Rev. Desmond Tutu several times and one of my best friends from South Africa has family that used to live down the street from him. (It is through them that I got the chance to meet this blessed man.)


I also presently work with a white South African ex-pat and I was laughing inside today when I was talking to him and thinking about the criticism that I have received in this thread.



I HOPE THAT THIS IS ENOUGH "PERSONAL EXPERIENCES" WITH SOUTH AFRICA FOR ALL THE DETRACTORS IN THIS THREAD.


After this post, I will say no more in this thread. I always encourage input from people from African countries to speak their own stories and I am glad that digsy joined into the discussion.





I started this thread because people are always questioning my background in African issues and/or positioning the idea that my enthusiasm for Africa has to be linked to my Love and Respect for U2 (especially Bono) and their music.


Actually, nothing could be further from the truth because my devotion to Africa and her people began years before I ever heard of U2 and a full decade before Bono ever set foot himself on African soil.



The student uprising of Soweto is THE MOTIVATING FACTOR IN MY LIFE FOR AFRICA - it is the event which transformed me from a watcher into a doer regarding Africa's future.



I always felt that if these students could give their lives for something they believed in so strongly, then I should be willing to sacrifice some of my own time and comfort in the pursuit of justice and democracy for Africa.


And I have been doing all that I can for Africa ever since.



For anyone who read this thread to learn about an event that they may not have known about before - thank you.


For anyone who learned something more about the student uprising of Soweto and its pivotal role in the end of apartheid - thank you.

And for anyone who contributed a positive comment and/or information in this thread - thank you.



I hope if any further discussion takes place in this thread, it will be to spread Love and Peace and not further dissension.



Nkosi Sikelel' Afrika
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Old 06-20-2006, 09:57 PM   #24
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History
Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika was composed in 1897 by Enoch Sontonga, a teacher at a Methodist mission school in Johannesburg. It was one of many songs he composed, and he was apparently a keen singer who composed the songs for his pupils.

The words of the first stanza were originally written in Xhosa as a hymn. In 1927 seven additional Xhosa stanzas were later added by Samuel Mqhayi, a poet.

Most of Sontonga's songs were sad, witnessing the suffering of African people in Johannesburg, but they were popular and after his death in 1905 choirs used to borrow them from his wife.

Solomon Plaatje, one of South Africa's greatest writers and a founding member of the ANC, was the first to have the song recorded. This was in London in 1923. A Sesotho version was published in 1942 by Moses Mphahlele.

The Rev J L Dube's Ohlange Zulu Choir popularised Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika at concerts in Johannesburg, and it became a popular church hymn that was also adopted as the anthem at political meetings.

For decades Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika was regarded as the national anthem of South Afrika by the oppressed and it was always sung as an act of defiance against the apartheid regime. A proclamation issued by the State President on 20 April 1994 stipulated that both Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika and Die Stem (the Call of South Africa) would be the national anthems of South Africa. In 1996 a shortened, combined version of the two anthems was released as the new National Anthem.

There are no standard versions or translations of Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika so the words vary from place to place and from occasion to occasion. Generally the first stanza is sung in Xhosa or Zulu, followed by the Sesotho version.

Below are the various versions and translations of Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika
Classic Xhosa Version

The first verse and chorus of this version are the original words composed by Sontonga in 1897. The remaining verses were added in 1927 by Samuel E Mqhayi.

Nkosi, sikelel' iAfrika;
Malupakam'upondo lwayo;
Yiva imitandazo yetu
Usisikelele.

Chorus
Yihla Moya, Yihla Moya,
Yihla Moya Oyingcwele

Sikelela iNkosi zetu;
Zimkumbule umDali wazo;
Zimoyike zezimhlonele,
Azisikelele.

Sikelel' amadod' esizwe,
Sikelela kwa nomlisela
Ulitwal'ilizwe ngomonde,
Uwusikelele.

Sikelel'amakosikazi;
Nawo onk'amanenekazi;
Pakamisa wonk'umtinjana
Uwusikelele.

Sikelela abafundisi
Bemvaba zonke zelilizwe;
Ubatwese ngoMoya Wako
Ubasikelele.

Sikelel'ulimo nemfuyo;
Gxota zonk'indlala nezifo;
Zalisa ilizwe ngempilo
Ulisikelele

Sikelel'amalinge etu
Awomanyano nokuzaka,
Awemfundo nemvisiswano
Uwasikelele.

Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika;
Cima bonk' ubugwenxa bayo
Nezigqito, nezono zayo
Uyisikelele.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God Bless Africa
Original Lovedale English Translation

Lord, bless Africa;
May her horn rise high up;
Hear Thou our prayers And bless us.

Chorus
Descend, O Spirit,
Descend, O Holy Spirit.


Bless our chiefs
May they remember their Creator.
Fear Him and revere Him,
That He may bless them.

Bless the public men,
Bless also the youth
That they may carry the land with patience
and that Thou mayst bless them.

Bless the wives
And also all young women;
Lift up all the young girls
And bless them.

Bless the ministers
of all the churches of this land;
Endue them with Thy Spirit
And bless them.

Bless agriculture and stock raising
Banish all famine and diseases;
Fill the land with good health
And bless it.

Bless our efforts
of union and self-uplift,
Of education and mutual understanding
And bless them.

Lord, bless Africa
Blot out all its wickedness
And its transgressions and sins,
And bless it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika
Current Xhosa Version

Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika
Maluphakanyisw' uphondo lwayo
Yiva imathandazo yethu
Nkosi Sikelela Nkosi Sikelela

Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika
Maluphakanyisw' uphondo lwayo
Yiva imathandazo yethu
Nkosi Sikelela
Thina lusapho lwayo.

Chorus
Yihla moya, yihla moya
Yihla moya oyingcwele
Nkosi Sikelela
Thina lusapho lwayo.
(Repeat)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morena Boloka Sechaba sa Heso
Sesotho Version

Morena boloka sechaba sa heso
O fedise dintwa le matshwenyeho,
Morena boloka sechaba sa heso,
O fedise dintwa le matshwenyeho.

O se boloke, o se boloke,
O se boloke, o se boloke.
Sechaba sa heso, Sechaba sa heso.
O se boloke morena se boloke,
O se boloke sechaba, se boloke.
Sechaba sa heso, sechaba sa heso.

Ma kube njalo! Ma kube njalo!
Kude kube ngunaphakade.
Kude kube ngunaphakade!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nkosi sikelel' iAfrika
Zulu Version

Nkosi, sikelel' iAfrika,
Malupnakanyisw' udumo lwayo;
Yizwa imithandazo yethu
Nkosi sikelela,
Nkosi sikelela,

Nkosi, sikelel' iAfrika,
Malupnakanyisw' udumo lwayo;
Yizwa imithandazo yethu
Nkosi sikelela,
Nkosi sikelela,

Woza Moya (woza, woza),
Woza Moya (woza, woza),
Woza Moya, Oyingcwele.
Usisikelele,
Thina lusapho lwayo.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lord Bless Africa
Current English Version

Lord, bless Africa
May her spirit rise high up
Hear thou our prayers
Lord bless us.

Lord, bless Africa
May her spirit rise high up
Hear thou our prayers
Lord bless us Your family.

Chorus
Descend, O Spirit
Descend, O Holy Spirit
Lord bless us
Your family.
(Repeat)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seen ons Here God, Seen Afrika
Afrikaans Version

Seen ons Here God, seen Afrika,
Laat sy mag tot in die hemel reik,
Hoor ons as ons in gebede vra,
Seen ons in Afrika,
Kinders van Afrika.

Daal neer o Gees, Heilige Gees,
Daal neer o Gees, Heilige Gees,
Kom woon in ons,
Lei ons, O Heilige Gees.

Hou U hand o Heer oor Afrika,
Lei ons tot by eenheid en begrip,
Hoor ons as ons U om vrede vra,
Seen ons in Afrika,
Kinders van Afrika.

Seen ons Here God, seen Afrika,
Neem dan nou die boosheid van ons weg,
Maak ons van ons sonde ewig vry,
Seen ons in Afrika,
Kinders van Afrika.



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Old 06-20-2006, 10:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jamila

Actually, nothing could be further from the truth because my devotion to Africa and her people began years before I ever heard of U2 and a full decade before Bono ever set foot himself on African soil.
Just to clarify, Bono himself was involved in African issues long before he set foot on African soil, and before 1985 (the year you mentioned earlier for your campus involvement).
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Old 06-20-2006, 10:54 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways


Frankly, I'd like to thank digsy and gibson girl for making this thread interesting. What they have provided is intelligent discussion and can't be found on Yahoo's front page. As it turns out, there's more to the story than what you have declared "HISTORICAL FACT. " Personal experiences often contribute more to the discussion than a bland article.
I'd just like to second this sentiment.



Also, Jamila, this is merely a suggestion but perhaps your message would be more effective if you mostly wrote posts describing your personal experiences/feelings/thoughts/questions, and then simply include links to articles (perhaps with a quick summery?) rather than copying and pasting them...
Thus, people can persue articles that interest them, and things are generally less cluttered.
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Old 06-21-2006, 05:07 AM   #27
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jamila, have you ever actually been to South Africa?

with all due respect, having friends whose family lived down the road from Bishop Desmond Tuto, working with a South African and being able to copy and paste "Nkosi sikelel' iAfrika" is not a "personal experience"

while your work with anti-apartheid movements previously and now with HIV/AIDs relief organisations is commendable, i really think posts like the above just show you're maybe trying a bit too hard to prove yourself.


That said, I am interested in hearing a bit more about this friend of yours who is South African and whose family has been devestated by AIDS....
South Africa - mostly thanks to Mbeki and his governement - has an appalling track record with HIV and AIDS and I'd be interested to hear your view point on it especially with regards to being so close to someone who is so heavily affected by this.
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Old 06-22-2006, 12:06 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jamila I started this thread because people are always questioning my background in African issues and/or positioning the idea that my enthusiasm for Africa has to be linked to my Love and Respect for U2 (especially Bono) and their music.
Oh? Earlier you said you started this thread to celebrate and remember the student uprising in Soweto.


Quote:
Originally posted by Jamila
Actually, nothing could be further from the truth because my devotion to Africa and her people began years before I ever heard of U2 and a full decade before Bono ever set foot himself on African soil.
FWIW Jamila, if people question your credibility on African issues, it's not because anyone really cares about where you get your inspiration - U2 or otherwise. It seems to be more about how you deliver your messages and how you handle yourself in discussions.
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:43 PM   #29
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Wow, Jamila, I didn't know you'd met Desmond Tutu. Awesome!
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