They Have Awakened The Sleeping Giant, Part 2

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80sU2isBest

Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Joined
Nov 12, 2000
Messages
4,970
Miami Herald

================================================
Published Wednesday, September 12, 2001
Headline: We'll go forward from this moment

It's my job to have something to say.
They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that
which troubles the American soul. But in this moment of airless
shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing
I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be
addressed to the unknown author of this suffering.
You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard.
What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack
on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you
hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you
failed.
Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.
Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.
Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.
Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome
family, a family rent by racial, social, political and class
division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes,
capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural
minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune,
a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready
availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of
that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe
entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving
and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do
it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith,
believers in a just and loving God.
Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this
makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed,
we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.
IN PAIN
Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock.
We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing
you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this
isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't
the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel. Both in terms of
the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final
death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts
of terrorism in the history of the United States and, probably,
the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never
been bloodied before.
But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and
making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its
bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last
time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When
roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force.
When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any
suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.
I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people,
as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes
me to tremble with dread of the future.
In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation,
fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen
and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will
be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms.
We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad.
But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.
THE STEEL IN US
You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That
aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who
don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is
put on hold.
As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and
as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish.
So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs
to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of
your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received.
And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people.
You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just
started.
But you're about to learn.
 
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people.
You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just
started.
But you're about to learn.

Um, okay... so the author is saying we're going to go kick some ass?? We're going to go bludgeon somebody? Tit for tat? There are a lot of Americans, probably millions of Americans, like me, who don't feel that way at all.

This article only serves to show exactly what's wrong with Nationalism.
 
Originally posted by pub crawler:
Um, okay... so the author is saying we're going to go kick some ass?? We're going to go bludgeon somebody? Tit for tat? There are a lot of Americans, probably millions of Americans, like me, who don't feel that way at all.
This article only serves to show exactly what's wrong with Nationalism.
Yes, we're gonna kick some ass. We're gonna kick the ass of the monsters who planned this. And that, pub crawler, is a good thing. Believe me, if we don't whip them now, they will whip us time after time after again. If you think we should not take our revenge and bring these monsters down, I have to wonder what you think we should do about it? Slap them on the hand?
 
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

If you think we should not take our revenge and bring these monsters down, I have to wonder what you think we should do about it? Slap them on the hand?

I think we should find the perpetrators. I think we should be 100% sure we've got the right people before we take action. I think the people who plotted this assault should be brought to justice. That could mean jail time. It doesn't have to mean bombing the hell out of some Middle-Eastern country and killing innocent civilians. It shouldn't mean killing innocents. Of course, I don't believe in killing anybody. Life imprisonment will do.

I know a lot of Americans' gut reaction is to take an eye for an eye, all in the name of God.
rolleyes.gif
Yet, as we both know, an "eye for an eye" is not a Christian concept. The people who plotted and carried out Tuesday's devastation believe in "an eye for an eye." They believe in "revenge." They haven't listened closely enough to Christ.

Revenge is not the proper remedy. Justice is.
 
Originally posted by pub crawler:
I think we should find the perpetrators. I think we should be 100% sure we've got the right people before we take action. I think the people who plotted this assault should be brought to justice. That could mean jail time. It doesn't have to mean bombing the hell out of some Middle-Eastern country and killing innocent civilians. It shouldn't mean killing innocents. Of course, I don't believe in killing anybody. Life imprisonment will do.
I know a lot of Americans' gut reaction is to take an eye for an eye, all in the name of God.
rolleyes.gif
Yet, as we both know, an "eye for an eye" is not a Christian concept. The people who plotted and carried out Tuesday's devastation believe in "an eye for an eye." They believe in "revenge." They haven't listened closely enough to Christ.
Revenge is not the proper remedy. Justice is.
In this case, revenge is the same as justice. Justice is bringing the perpetrators to punsihment. If that means "bombing the hell out of them", then that's what we need to do. "An eye for an eye" is not about war. It is about personal relationships. Do you think Bin Laden is the only one who is capable of this or willing to do it? Do you think throwing him in jail will accomplish one damn thing? If so, you need to take a closer look at reality. If we do not totally annihalate these terrorist groups, they will live to do this again and again and again, and one day, when a terrorist group has accomplished nuclear capability, they will launch it against what they call "The Great Satan", and you will look up in the sky and see a great nuclear blast headed straight for you. Then, you will say "why oh why didn't we do something about this before these madmen had this capability". If you think that arresting Bin Laden will solve this problem, you need to wake up.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 09-13-2001).]
 
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
In this case, revenge is the same as justice.
ehhh, no it isn't

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Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
 
I agree with 80'sU2IsBest. Not only does America deserve justice (I will not call it petty revenge, because I don't think it is) but it should move ahead with such a campaign that will only protect the world from such terrorism.

Ant.
 
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
If we do not totally annihalate these terrorist groups, they will live to do this again and again and again, and one day, when a terrorist group has accomplished nuclear capability, they will launch it against what they call "The Great Satan", and you will look up in the sky and see a great nuclear blast headed straight for you. Then, you will say "why oh why didn't we do something about this before these madmen had this capability".

Heck, I and many others are thinking that NOW!!!!!!!!!
mad.gif




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Look...look what you've done to me...You've made me poor and infamous, and I thank you...

My name is MISS MACPHISTO...I'm tired and i want to go HOME...

"Well you tell...Bonovista,that i said hello and that my codename is Belleview" - Bono before opening night of Anaheim Elevation concert
 
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Then tell me, what is revenge in this case? what is justice?

Revenge is our intent to wreak equal or worse havoc on whomever the terrorists turn out to be.

Many Americans (including a good number of Interferencers) want to see heads roll. No, actually many Americans want to see heads burn. That is revenge, and it's barbarism.

Justice would be served by bringing the perpertrators to trial in a court of law, but if that isn't possible I think justice would be served if we imposed sanctions against the country of which the
perpetrator(s) are citizens. That's one option. There are others.

This of course supposes that the perpetrators are from a foreign land, which at this point appears to be the case. (According to CNN, Colin Powell "[has] identified [Osama] bin Laden as the 'primary suspect.'" in the attack)

On another note, 80's, you can dismiss the "eye for an eye" verse all you want, but the fact is, it's used as justification for revenge against people groups all the time. In fact, I have to laugh a little because as I'm typing this I'm listening to a talk show on the radio and, regarding the current political situation and tragedy, some caller just now said, and I quote, "It's an eye for an eye, we ought to fly a big airliner into a building in the Middle East..." So, yes, 80's, that verse is (mis)used in the context of taking revenge on people groups, and I've heard it misused that way frequently.
 
Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
pub crawler, I see what you're saying, but unfortunately we can't go and arrest those who are are responsible for this.

Spiral, If the perpetrator turns out to be a man like Osama bin Laden, then yes, I would agree that's it's unlikely we'll be able to capture him.

But my point is, tearing his eyeballs out is not going to make anyone's life better. And if you're going to go tear bin Laden's eyeballs out, please do not tell me you're going to do it in the name of Jesus.

That's one of the things that really baffles me, Spiral, is that so many of these Americans who want to rip Osama bin Laden's eyes out, light a rubber tire on fire and place it around his neck, and pour acid down his throat -- so many of these people will be sitting in church next Sunday and telling the person sitting next to them that Jesus loves them. I find that perplexing, to say the least.
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
I agree with 80'sU2IsBest. Not only does America deserve justice (I will not call it petty revenge, because I don't think it is) but it should move ahead with such a campaign that will only protect the world from such terrorism.

Ant.

Anthony, no violent campaign will cure violence.

It's interesting that people in their frustration pontificate and spew angry verbiage about the cycle of violence in the Middle East and yet these very same people propose to cure this cycle of violence with.... violence.
 
I cant believe what i am hearing. Arrest them? That is ubsurd. This isnt some petty attack. This is war.

You cant arrest a country nor can you arrest groups of thousdans of people. If we arrest Bin Laden his faction kills more of our people.

How can we stop terrorists with sanctions?

Bin laden has his hand on hundreds and hundreds of millions of dolars. You are talking about not wanting to hurt inncoet ppl but you want sanctions on countries that are run by religious org. and are'nt a democracy. Who would you be hurting there. Only the people.

Pub crawler, your lax attitude is very surprising. I thought the world would learn from its mistakes. How did Hilter become so powerful? We didnt take him seriously until he had half od Europe in his hands. The Talibans main objective is to have to whole world under its rule. They think thats what their God wants. we need to stop terrorism once and for all. We need to put the fear of God into them. So when the tought of attacking anyone comes cross their minds let them be reminded of the reaction of the world when this happened.



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Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono
 
pub crawler, I see what you're saying, but unfortunately we can't go and arrest those who are are responsible for this. When you're talking about thousands of armed men ready to die for their cause, you can't walk in and slap cuffs on them and drag them into a court room. They will shoot you. If these people would turn themselves in, maybe the killing could stop, but they won't. Thus, the only way we can prevent them from doing this again in six months it to attack them and likely kill them in a war-like scenario. It's absolutely horrible, but it's reality.
 
Originally posted by pub crawler:
Many Americans (including a good number of Interferencers) want to see heads roll. No, actually many Americans want to see heads burn. That is revenge, and it's barbarism.

It's interesting that people in their frustration pontificate and spew angry verbiage about the cycle of violence in the Middle East and yet these very same people propose to cure this cycle of violence with.... violence.
How dare you insult the people of this nation (many of whom have lost loved ones) at a time like this by calling them "barbarous" and using negative words like "pontificate" and "spew". It's been less than a week, man! Are you trying to tell me that you don't understand America's (and especially the victims' families) desire to see "heads roll" or "heads burn"!! How in the HELL can you be so insensitive? You come on here and insult the people of this country, all the while saying "Violence is not the answer, violence is not the answer". Well, open your eyes, blind man. Your perfect world doesn't exist. IT HASN"T SINCE ADAM AND EVE ATE THE APPLE! Terrorism is a disease that must be completely cured. A bandaid will not help. If terrorist groups are not completely destroyed and prevented from happening again, this kind of monstrosity will happen again and again and again. I am tired of you.
 
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
How dare you insult the people of this nation (many of whom have lost loved ones) at a time like this by calling them "barbarous" and using negative words like "pontificate" and "spew". It's been less than a week, man! Are you trying to tell me that you don't understand America's (and especially the victims' families) desire to see "heads roll" or "heads burn"!! How in the HELL can you be so insensitive? You come on here and insult the people of this country, all the while saying "Violence is not the answer, violence is not the answer". Well, open your eyes, blind man. Your perfect world doesn't exist. IT HASN"T SINCE ADAM AND EVE ATE THE APPLE! Terrorism is a disease that must be completely cured. A bandaid will not help. If terrorist groups are not completely destroyed and prevented from happening again, this kind of monstrosity will happen again and again and again. I am tired of you.

80's, that's one of your favorite comebacks -- that I've insulted you, or gun-owners or Evangelical Christians. This time I've apparently insulted "the people of this Nation."
rolleyes.gif


Funny, you then proceed to insult me in your post.

You've used the "insult" accusation many times when responding to me but the fact is you just can't deal with someone who's views are so radically different and diametrically opposed to yours. You and I are cosmos apart in our thinking, there's no doubt about that.

You can't stand me because I'm one person to whom you can't use another one of your favorite lines, which goes something like this: "[Name of Interferencer you've been arguing with], despite our differences, I would bet that we agree about more things than we disagree.."

When you decide to grow up maybe we discuss the issues, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
Originally posted by pub crawler:
Funny, you then proceed to insult me in your post.

You've used the "insult" accusation many times when responding to me but the fact is you just can't deal with someone who's views are so radically different and diametrically opposed to yours. You and I are cosmos apart in our thinking, there's no doubt about that.

When you decide to grow up maybe we discuss the issues, but I'm not holding my breath.
I called you "blind man" - is that the insult you're talking about? How about "insensitive"? If those are insults, I'll admit to it. If you think my point was just some simple little insult here, you're wrong. I was talking about someone who insults people who have been through utter and complete hell at the hands of madmen. If you can't open your heart and understand people's rage, then there's something wrong. And for Heaven's sake, don't be so self righteous and judge them over it! My insult to you was nothing on the scale of how you have insulted those in mourning who understandably want revenge.
And by the way, I get along decently with many people I disagree with. You and Matthew_Page were the only ones I completely lashed out at. And MatthewPage didn't insult a grieving people, he just made me mad. My anger at him may have been over the top and unjustified, but not my disgust with you.
 
Originally posted by Hitman:
THAT IS THE MOST ABSURD COMMENT EVER POSTED ON THIS WEBSITE.


I would have to totally agree with this comment!!!

And your right 80's. This isnt some vigilanty witch hunt the US is on it is war and if we want these acts to end we must act with complete and uder percision and knock out any terroist regiems in the world!




------------------
Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono
 
'Anthony, no violent campaign will cure violence.'

How can you say that? Ill tell you what IS interesting, seeing how many idealists are still around. The 21st century is NO time for idealism, and the belief that violence doesn't solve anything is not only idealistic but foolish. Are you saying that the second world war stopped because we all stood around and talked about peace? Of course not, it ended because nuclear bombs were dropped, nations were blasted into oblivion and people were slaughtered. Violence.
Violence can end violence. THere is always a price for peace. You must agree.

Ant.
 
Hitman, bonoman and Anthony...

I think all the dead horses have been thoroughly beaten on Interference today but I wanted to thank you for at least addressing the points I actually made and for not putting words in my mouth. And thank you for being civil. (Although I must say, Hitman, no need to yell at me... I can hear ya loud and clear in your regular voice.
smile.gif
)

Anthony, I am a bit surprised at your comments. You're very anti-institution in most cases but your statements here seem to be to the contrary.

Anyway, peace guys.

P.S. The following note was sent to me today, written by a friend of a friend, and many of the ideas here resonate with me:

-------
I've been wondering, what can I do? How can I be of use during this terrible time in our history? Instead of being devastated by events I have no control over, I've decided the best thing would be to take responsibility where I can. So,

Today I will donate blood

Today I will ask my neighbors and friends how they are and then really
listen.

I'll wear red, white and blue and display a flag on Friday September 14th.

I'll light a candle tonight at 7 p.m. and go outside and be with my neighbors.

I'm praying for peace, praying for the victims and their families, praying
for our leaders. I'm also praying for the terrorists who live in so much
fear and hatred--for they need the most love of all. (In many studies it has been proven that people who are ill and have people praying for them heal faster than those who don't. Think what we as a nation could do if we all prayed.)

If I see an American who is of Middle East background being harassed, I'll speak up. We are all Americans. Some of those who have fled here from the Middle East were seeking freedom and a life of peace--just as I am. Remember how the Japanese/American citizens were treated during World War II? We
don't need to go there again. I will learn from our past mistakes.

These terrible tragedies are a result of ignorance, hatred, and jealousy.
Where do I have hatred, bigotry and jealousy? It's time I cleaned my side of
the street, so to speak. I'm going to say I'm sorry to someone I have harmed. I'll say thank you to someone who has helped me. I'm telling those close to me that I love them. If nothing else, I can use these horrible
events to bring me closer to my community and bring myself some inner peace.

I'll honor the victims of September 11th and all the millions who have died before them as a result of hatred (like during the Holocaust) and be conscious in my own life where I fear others, and where I am intolerant. And just for today, I'll make another choice. I'll smile and silently wish them well, and laugh at myself for being fearful.

That's what I can do today.

Much love to all of you. Each of you has touched my life in some way and I
thank you for making me so fortunate.

--Marilyn

Marilyn Flanagan
Philadelphia
 
Pub Crawler, I assume you're talking about me when you say "put words in your mouth". But I don't know how direct quoting can be "putting words in your mouth". You wrote the following against Americans expressing thoughts of revenge. There is no doubt that you wrote these things. They are right here on this very thread, in blue and light blue:

?Many Americans (including a good number of Interferencers) want to see heads roll. No, actually many Americans want to see heads burn. That is revenge, and it's BARBARISM.?

-and-

?It's interesting that people in their frustration PONTIFICATE and SPEW angry verbiage about the cycle of violence in the Middle East and yet these very same people propose to cure this cycle of violence with.... violence.?

I have capitalized the terms that I deem insulting to those who want revenge and justice.

You accuse me of not responding to issues you address, but you?ve never told me why I shouldn?t think you were insulting when you used these terms.

I addressed the issues you brought up with me about how well I get along with people I don?t agree with, I addressed the issue in which you state I insulted you. I didn?t adress the ?eye for an eye? issue, because my point is that the ?eye for an eye? is not about war, and then you turn around and say that people use it to justify war all the time. I didn?t respond because I have no issue with that. But I will respond now, since you don?t seem to get it. Here is my response for your statemne that people do use the ?eye for an eye? to justify war. Asre you ready? Here it is. Read carefully:

?I don?t care what other people use for a justification for war. ?An eye for an eye? is something I have never used to justify war. The thing I use to justify war is the need for justice.?

There, I ahve adressed it.Are you happy?
 
80s, honestly, any desire I may have had to engage in dialogue with you is lost. It's lost because I feel your words toward me are often mean-spirited, disrespectful, and, yes, at times even childish. But the biggest issue I have with you is that you often spin my words to mean something completely different than what I intended. You leave me scratching my head a LOT.

This last post of your appears to be hostile, but I?m going to pretend it?s not and I?m going to respond to it. I could be making a mistake because I expect that you?re going to come back and slam me, but I?ll take that chance. It?s only a discussion forum.

Your words to me:
"You wrote the following against Americans expressing thoughts of revenge..."

My response:
80s, your phrasing here is exactly one of the problems. I'm not writing a damn thing "against Americans." You make it sound as though I'm some sort of traitor to the country. I am writing a statement against mass killing of innocent people. Yes, my statement is relevant now because of the events this week. And of course, since we Americans are the ones who are likely to bomb a foreign land as revenge for the crimes committed against our Nation this week, my statement applies to us. But it also applies to the terrorists who committed Tuesday's atrocities. As for my use of the word "Barbarianism," yes, if Americans or anyone else on planet Earth wants to go into another country and carpet bomb (for example), killing innocent people for the sins of a few, then yes, I believe that is barbaric behavior. The terrorists who attacked the U.S. Tuesday were BARBARIANS!

If we do carpet bomb Afghanistan and you don't consider that action to be barbaric, then fine! Then you can tell me you disagree with me and even give reasons why but please, don't put your own peculiar spin on it and imply that I'm anti-American. I tend to be a pacifist so I find any kind of killing appalling. I am anti-killing, whether the killing is done by the government of Haiti, France, the U.S., Afghanistan, Timbuktu, or anywhere else!

I wrote this:
?It's interesting that people in their frustration pontificate and spew angry verbiage about the cycle of violence in the Middle East and yet these very same people propose to cure this cycle of violence with.... violence.?

And you responded with this:
"How dare you insult the people of this nation (many of whom have lost loved ones) at a time like this by calling them "barbarous" and using negative words like "pontificate" and "spew". It's been less than a week, man! Are you trying to tell me that you don't understand America's (and especially the victims' families) desire to see "heads roll" or "heads burn"!! How in the HELL can you be so insensitive? You come on here and insult the people of this country, all the while saying "Violence is not the answer, violence is not the answer". Well, open your eyes, blind man. Your perfect world doesn't exist. IT HASN"T SINCE ADAM AND EVE ATE THE APPLE! Terrorism is a disease that must be completely cured. A bandaid will not help. If terrorist groups are not completely destroyed and prevented from happening again, this kind of monstrosity will happen again and again and again. I am tired of you."

My response:
80's, I honestly am at a loss to explain how you came up with that interpretation of my words. You're angry with me because I "use negative words like ?pontificate? and ?spew?? What the hell are you talking about???? I simply stated that violence does not cure violence, and once again you put your spin on my words and told me flat out that I don't have any sympathy for the families of the victims (your word was "insensitive"). I was making a statement about killing and war, specifically in the Middle East, and as it relates to the events of this week. But mostly, I was talking about the posts I have been reading that are written by your average person on your average discussion board. My statement had nothing to do with the victims or their families. Frankly, I would apply that same statement to any ongoing war on this planet ? violence does not cure violence.

You wrote this:
"I addressed the issue in which you state I insulted you..."

My response:
Yes, you did address it by insulting me further. I'll give you that.

You wrote this:
"But I will respond now, since you don?t seem to get it. Here is my response for your statemne that people do use the ?eye for an eye? to justify war. Asre you ready? Here it is. Read carefully..."

My response:
There you go with your sarcasm again. Why do you find it so necessary to be condescending to me??? So hateful?

I'm tired of writing. 80's, it's your choice. If you want to be civil and engage in dialogue, then fine, we can do that. But if you're going to continue with your insults, condescending language, and telling me in every other post that I am offending you or some group of people who share a given ideology, then I think it would be better for my peace of mind and yours if we didn't address each other at all on this discussion board. The negativity really wears me out.
 
Hello everyone!

I've been in and out of interference for the past year. I try to get on as much as I can. I'd like to become a regular one-day if you guys and gals would have me.

I'm an active duty United States Sailor. FC2(SW) Alexander.

80sU2istheBest, Anthony, Hitman, bonoman, and, Miss MacPhisto I love you guys!

pub crawler!

I don't know if you?re an American or not. But, being able to express your opinion on a format like this is pretty nice isn't? I think we don't step back and think about that enough. Not everybody in the world can do what we're doing right now. If you stop and think about it, add up all the countries in the world who have the freedom we have here in the United States. Not to many.

FREEDOM IS NOT A RIGHT, IT'S A LUXURY THAT I'M WILLING TO DIE FOR.

I've been here in Great Lakes, IL, for a month now. I just came from a Ship that I was attached to for 5 years. I'm going to be a RDC(Recruit Division Commander) for boot camp. Kind of like a Drill Sergeant. If I'm given the choice to go back to a ship when all this pans out,..... I'm out of here.

I will not hesitate to push that button and launch that missile
(That?s what I do by the way...I'm the guy who actually pushes the button after a order is giving to me....can't tell you much more than that).
If they let me, I'll push it twice everytime. One for each Tower!!

biggrin.gif
GOD BLESS AMERICA
biggrin.gif




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U2 is the best Band Ever!
 
Originally posted by pub crawler:

Justice would be served by bringing the perpertrators to trial in a court of law, but if that isn't possible I think justice would be served if we imposed sanctions against the country of which the
perpetrator(s) are citizens. That's one option. There are others.

Bleeding hearts frustrate me during normal life, but right now it just makes me want to stick a fork in my eye. ARGH!

That's absolutely not an option, pub_crawler. No way. Of course the obvious reason is that it does absolutely nothing to stop these grass-roots fundamentalist wackos. If you believe arresting and imprisoning Bin Laden and a few other associates would have any significant affect on terrorism you're sorely mistaken. But I'll present the somewhat less obvious reason that arrest or sanctions are absolutely no good.

Bin Laden is imprisoned and Afghanistan faces serious sanctions against it. Okay, now do you want to be one of the people who is taken hostage by some group demanding that the sanctions be lifted and Bin Laden be released? Do you not think that would ultimately happen? I can almost assure you it would. But hey, that's okay...if you're taken hostage you'll have a chance to sit down and talk it out with them. Maybe they'll listen. Then when you get up to take your place back on the floor they'll shoot you in the back. Now you're dead. Good thing we placed sanctions on Afghanistan. You know what else happens? Likely every American in that scenario dies one way or the other. Either because sanctions aren't lifted and that's their response, or because Bin Laden is released and they kill everyone anyway...we're the Great Satan you know...gotta die.
 
Originally posted by whammy:
Hello everyone!

I've been in and out of interference for the past year. I try to get on as much as I can. I'd like to become a regular one-day if you guys and gals would have me.

I'm an active duty United States Sailor. FC2(SW) Alexander.

80sU2istheBest, Anthony, Hitman, bonoman, and, Miss MacPhisto I love you guys!

pub crawler!

I don't know if you?re an American or not. But, being able to express your opinion on a format like this is pretty nice isn't? I think we don't step back and think about that enough. Not everybody in the world can do what we're doing right now. If you stop and think about it, add up all the countries in the world who have the freedom we have here in the United States. Not to many.

FREEDOM IS NOT A RIGHT, IT'S A LUXURY THAT I'M WILLING TO DIE FOR.

I've been here in Great Lakes, IL, for a month now. I just came from a Ship that I was attached to for 5 years. I'm going to be a RDC(Recruit Division Commander) for boot camp. Kind of like a Drill Sergeant. If I'm given the choice to go back to a ship when all this pans out,..... I'm out of here.

I will not hesitate to push that button and launch that missile
(That?s what I do by the way...I'm the guy who actually pushes the button after a order is giving to me....can't tell you much more than that).
If they let me, I'll push it twice everytime. One for each Tower!!

biggrin.gif
GOD BLESS AMERICA
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Jaysus, dude, are you sure your name isn't Supreme Cutlass??

Just kiddin', whammy, welcome back(?) to the board. Make yourself at home.
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Originally posted by pub crawler:
I think we should find the perpetrators. I think we should be 100% sure we've got the right people before we take action. I think the people who plotted this assault should be brought to justice. That could mean jail time[/b


JAIL TIME?!?!?!?! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? JAIL TIME? THEY HAVE ATTACKED OUR FREEDOM, OUR COUNTRY, KILLED THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF OUR PEOPLE FOR THE SOLE REASON BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IT IS THEIR DUTY TO DO SO AND YOU RECOMMEND JAIL TIME? THAT IS THE MOST ABSURD COMMENT EVER POSTED ON THIS WEBSITE. IT IS TIME FOR THIS COUNTRY TO FINALLY STAND UP FOR ITSELF. IF THIS HAPPENED TO ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WAR WOULD HAVE BEEN DECLARED IMMEDIATELY. THE USA HAS TO SEND A MESSAGE, A HARD AND EXTREMELY SERIOUS MESSAGE THAT WE WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS. PUTTING A FEW PEOPLE IN JAIL WILL NOT ACCOMPLISH THIS.
 
Originally posted by MSU2mike:

Bin Laden is imprisoned and Afghanistan faces serious sanctions against it. Okay, now do you want to be one of the people who is taken hostage by some group demanding that the sanctions be lifted and Bin Laden be released? Do you not think that would ultimately happen? I can almost assure you it would. But hey, that's okay...if you're taken hostage you'll have a chance to sit down and talk it out with them. Maybe they'll listen. Then when you get up to take your place back on the floor they'll shoot you in the back. Now you're dead. Good thing we placed sanctions on Afghanistan. You know what else happens? Likely every American in that scenario dies one way or the other. Either because sanctions aren't lifted and that's their response, or because Bin Laden is released and they kill everyone anyway...we're the Great Satan you know...gotta die.

Um, Mike buddy, that sure is a lot of "if's, and's and but's." Anyhoo, I'm completely burnt out on debating this stuff. Peace.
 
Originally posted by pub crawler:
80s, honestly, any desire I may have had to engage in dialogue with you is lost. It's lost because I feel your words toward me are often mean-spirited, disrespectful, and, yes, at times even childish. But the biggest issue I have with you is that you often spin my words to mean something completely different than what I intended. You leave me scratching my head a LOT.

Your words to me:
"You wrote the following against Americans expressing thoughts of revenge..."

My response:
80s, your phrasing here is exactly one of the problems. I'm not writing a damn thing "against Americans." You make it sound as though I'm some sort of traitor to the country. I am writing a statement against mass killing of innocent people. Yes, my statement is relevant now because of the events this week. And of course, since we Americans are the ones who are likely to bomb a foreign land as revenge for the crimes committed against our Nation this week, my statement applies to us. But it also applies to the terrorists who committed Tuesday's atrocities. As for my use of the word "Barbarianism," yes, if Americans or anyone else on planet Earth wants to go into another country and carpet bomb (for example), killing innocent people for the sins of a few, then yes, I believe that is barbaric behavior. The terrorists who attacked the U.S. Tuesday were BARBARIANS!

If we do carpet bomb Afghanistan and you don't consider that action to be barbaric, then fine! Then you can tell me you disagree with me and even give reasons why but please, don't put your own peculiar spin on it and imply that I'm anti-American. I tend to be a pacifist so I find any kind of killing appalling. I am anti-killing, whether the killing is done by the government of Haiti, France, the U.S., Afghanistan, Timbuktu, or anywhere else!

I wrote this:
?It's interesting that people in their frustration pontificate and spew angry verbiage about the cycle of violence in the Middle East and yet these very same people propose to cure this cycle of violence with.... violence.?

And you responded with this:
"How dare you insult the people of this nation (many of whom have lost loved ones) at a time like this by calling them "barbarous" and using negative words like "pontificate" and "spew". It's been less than a week, man! Are you trying to tell me that you don't understand America's (and especially the victims' families) desire to see "heads roll" or "heads burn"!! How in the HELL can you be so insensitive? You come on here and insult the people of this country, all the while saying "Violence is not the answer, violence is not the answer". Well, open your eyes, blind man. Your perfect world doesn't exist. IT HASN"T SINCE ADAM AND EVE ATE THE APPLE! Terrorism is a disease that must be completely cured. A bandaid will not help. If terrorist groups are not completely destroyed and prevented from happening again, this kind of monstrosity will happen again and again and again. I am tired of you."

My response:
80's, I honestly am at a loss to explain how you came up with that interpretation of my words. You're angry with me because I "use negative words like ?pontificate? and ?spew?? What the hell are you talking about???? I simply stated that violence does not cure violence, and once again you put your spin on my words and told me flat out that I don't have any sympathy for the families of the victims (your word was "insensitive"). I was making a statement about killing and war, specifically in the Middle East, and as it relates to the events of this week. But mostly, I was talking about the posts I have been reading that are written by your average person on your average discussion board. My statement had nothing to do with the victims or their families. Frankly, I would apply that same statement to any ongoing war on this planet ? violence does not cure violence.

You wrote this:
"I addressed the issue in which you state I insulted you..."

My response:
Yes, you did address it by insulting me further. I'll give you that.

You wrote this:
"But I will respond now, since you don?t seem to get it. Here is my response for your statemne that people do use the ?eye for an eye? to justify war. Asre you ready? Here it is. Read carefully..."

My response:
There you go with your sarcasm again. Why do you find it so necessary to be condescending to me??? So hateful?

I'm tired of writing. 80's, it's your choice. If you want to be civil and engage in dialogue, then fine, we can do that. But if you're going to continue with your insults, condescending language, and telling me in every other post that I am offending you or some group of people who share a given ideology, then I think it would be better for my peace of mind and yours if we didn't address each other at all on this discussion board. The negativity really wears me out.
Pub Crawler, I will try to calm down, but it's really hard to do at this pint, because you are being so irrational. I do NOT hate you. Yes, I use sarcasm, but that is because I am frustrated that you refuse to admit what you have done. You talked about your statement about "barbarism" being meant for people who want to go "carpet bombing". Well then, why the heck didn't you say that originally? And on top of that, how many people have you seen on interference asking for "carpet bombing"? I would say zero to none. I didn't see any on this thread. You didn't use the words "carpet bombing" one single time. You stated that wanting REVENGE is "Barbarism". How can that NOT be an insult, especially at a time like this, when thoughts of revenge are so understandable? I will now address the word "spew". It means "to eject from the stomach, to vomit".
"pontificate" is actually a noun meaning "priest, holy, pope", so I can only assume that by using it as a verb, the definition would be "to consider oneself holy". You used "pontificate" and "spew" in conjunction with people who want to apply violence in this situation. Did you or did you not? And who wants to apply violence most in this situation? The American people -many of whom have lost loved ones! Now, can you really sit there in your chair and tell me that you were not insulting the American people by using the words "spew", "pontificate" and "barbarism"? When considering your answer, please remember that at the time your words were stated, the discussion was about American reaction to the attacks.
And I know that now you'll think I've been "twisting" your words, but I don't know how you can say that. I simply stated your words and tried to get you to think about the meaning and ramifications of those words.
Pub Crawler, I did get very emotional with you. The terms "blind man" and "insensitive" were meant to convey my frustration with you. I can't honestly say I'm sorry, because I really feel that in this situation, those terms accurately describe you. And yes, I have been known to apologize - ask bonoman, Sicilian Goddess, I think maybe Melon, and a couple of others.


[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 09-15-2001).]
 
Nevermind...probably not worth it.

[This message has been edited by MSU2mike (edited 09-15-2001).]
 
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