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Old 08-13-2003, 07:54 PM   #1
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There will NEVER be Democracy in Iraq

We are facing a Civilization that is NOT anywhere near ready for a Democratic society.

[Q]
With Iraqi state gone, Islamic courts emerge

08/04/03

NEIL MacFARQUHAR

NAJAF, Iraq -- An obviously agitated young man walked into the Islamic court of Najaf and confessed to the sheik serving as chief judge that he had murdered his mother. [/Q]

He walked in because the Iraqi Police force is busy hiding inside of their barracks while our soldiers are protecting them and being blown up outside. But, he did come to court to turn himself in. It sounds hopefull right?????

[Q]"I was merciful with her: I emptied a full magazine because I didn't want to make her suffer," explained the man, Mukdar Jabar Ali. He did it, he said, because he was sure his mother had been sullying the family name by committing adultery since he was a boy. He got a gun two weeks ago, he said, and did what he had wanted to do for years. [/Q]

Just when I thought there was hope. This is what we are up against....bringing Democracy to people who would kill their own parent over adultery. This is a "Civilization" that will NEVER be able to blend in with the "Western" world if this is the way they behave. Hold on though, he "didn't want her to suffer" so he emptied the whole magazine into her?????


[Q]Sitting on the carpeted floor of a tiny chamber in a former theological school, the judge, Sheik Ahmed Shaibani, listened carefully, asking for details.

Shaibani ordered a scribe sitting beside him to write three letters. One went to the police asking them for whatever files they might have on the killing. A second went to the local sheik in a neighboring town to prevent the mother's family from exacting revenge; and a third summoned the mother's family to tell its side of the story. [/Q]

A letter to the local sheik to prevent the family from getting revenge. This is just freaking great!!!

Dear Sheik,

Please stop by Akbar's relatives house and ask them to postpone killing him. WE are currently trying to get information out of the local police department in this matter.

Thank you,

Sheik Ahmed Shaibani

What is going on? It appears that it is the rise of a religious court system, and possibly a religious governement similar to Iran.

[Q]Those who want to establish an Islamic system of government in Iraq similar to the one in neighboring Iran stepped quickly into the vacuum, establishing courts in Najaf and in Baghdad to deal with a welter of legal problems.

Their docket covers all types of criminal and civil cases that normal courts would hear: murder, divorce, spouse abuse, property disputes.

The religious courts have also asserted a special right to grant permission sought by people seeking revenge against the former ruling Baath Party of Saddam.

Many aggrieved Iraqis, feeling that they have no other place they can trust for legal rulings, have flocked to these courts. It does not seem to matter that the courts have no enforcement power and are not recognized by either the U.S. occupation forces or Iraq's other Muslim religious authorities.[/Q]

No it doesn't matter. What matters is REALITY. The REALITY is that if the People believe that this is the LEGAL authority, then it is.

[Q]Shaibani insists the court is here to stay. The 33-year-old cleric, the Friday Prayers leader in the southern Euphrates city of Diwaniya, is a close aid to Muqtada al-Sadr, the scion of a renowned clan of respected clergymen. His widely revered father, Grand Ayatollah Mohammad Sadiq al-Sadr, was an opponent of Saddam and is thought to have been assassinated by the government in 1999.

Al-Sadr and the young clerics around him have broken with the more conservative, senior clergymen in Najaf by openly calling for opposition to the U.S. occupation and for the establishment of a theocracy mirroring that in the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Shaibani said an important purpose of the Islamic courts was to investigate the assassination of al-Sadr. The group seized all the local records from the secret police and are slowly working through them.

They have also given religious approval to those who wish to kill members of the old Baath government. The sheik would not say how many have sought such permission, and emphasized that the court would not carry out any death sentences itself. But he said such rulings were based on guidelines issued by the grand ayatollah in the Iranian holy city of Qum. That alone gives the court the proper standing, he said. [/Q]

So, the POWER of these courts comes from IRAN. I smell a rising THEOCRACY. It is nice that the court does not have to carry out the death sentences themselves. They are just there to give permission to go out and kill people.

Yes, we find the defendant guilty....now go kill him.

[Q]The ruling states that the lowest ranks of the Baath Party, like students who joined in order to graduate, should not be killed, but makes fair game of informants, torturers, major party figures plus current saboteurs, the sheik said. [/Q]

Oh thank goodness, a voice of reason. Do not kill the lowest ranks. It is not their fault. It truly isn't. Catch a big fish though, and you have our permission to kill him.

But back to Ali the boy who killed his mother.

[Q]Ali, 25, also expressed the belief that his chances of getting a fair ruling from the religious court were better than they would be from a regular court. His slain mother's relatives said they would extract a terrible revenge on him and his four brothers unless they turned over their house, two female relatives from the father's side of the family for marriage and significant blood money.

Ali said he owed the mother's family nothing, since he was restoring the family honor for the adultery. He told the judge that the local police were still corrupt Baathists, demanding bribes to make sure the case ended in his favor.

Shaibani promised a fair mediation.

"This court will rule according to our Shiite traditions," Ali said. "This is the true court. This is the ruling of God." [/Q]

I sincerely doubt that there is any chance at a Democracy existing in this place. In my humble opinion this is a Civilization that is in extreme conflict with Western Civilization. We are in big trouble the longer we stay there.

President Bush, bring the troops home NOW please and save our families any further agony. Put the money you will save into true homeland security and education.
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Old 08-13-2003, 09:07 PM   #2
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I must agree with you Dread. I felt that the Administration was terribly naive in dealing with the realities of political life in the Middle Eastern countries. You can't take a country which had drifted off into primitive chaos, which is quite frankly what had happened to Iraq before anyone had ever heard of Saddam, and build a Western-style democracy in it. Look at Turkey. They've been working on democracy there for almost 100 years, starting with the same thing, medieval theocracy. It's been a chaotic struggle at best. The Administration is making the same mistake that Britain made during and after the First World War. They didn't any more understand those countries and their politics than they did the man in the moon. This Administration doesn't know what the hell it's doing, and it's fking up big time.
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Old 08-13-2003, 10:33 PM   #3
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"President Bush, bring the troops home NOW please and save our families any further agony. Put the money you will save into true homeland security and education."

I saw the press conference the Military Families and the Veterans for Peace gave today announcing the "Bring the Troops Home Now" initiative. It was very informative, especially on the living conditions the troops are dealing with. 5 men in a 12 X 14 tent in 120 degree heat. While the oil people, and the US authorities live in Sadaam's palaces.
What was most disturbing was the lack of parts for equipment or repairs. The DOD did a shitty job preparing for this war. They must have thought it would be over so fast that they wouldn't need spare parts. Our troops are suffering from Rummys cheap war, kinda reminds me of troops in Nam having to use bullets sparingly because they were in short supply. I also found horrible the cause of death lies told to one father. They told him and the media he was shot in th eback of the head by Iraqi's only to later find he stepped on a cluster bomb placed during the night and his unit wasn't informed.
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Old 08-13-2003, 11:05 PM   #4
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Islam is a theocracy. So is Judaism. They share that in common, their religion beliefs permeate the social fabric, at least historically speaking.

I don't understand all this talk about democracy in Iraq. When was Iraq a democracy? Never. Now we think we'll march in there with our lofty ideas and goals of what life should be like and these people will fall in line and thank us for our brilliance.
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Old 08-13-2003, 11:23 PM   #5
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I guess I no longer know what to say to this. It is probably why I cannot gather myself to support the Islamic world, despite the cries of the liberal anti-war crowd.

I'm surprised that the Western world really tolerates this crap.

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Old 08-14-2003, 12:13 AM   #6
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Originally posted by melon
I guess I no longer know what to say to this. It is probably why I cannot gather myself to support the Islamic world, despite the cries of the liberal anti-war crowd.

I'm surprised that the Western world really tolerates this crap.

Melon
One thing for sure....The US Military should not be used to bring Democracy into another country. I still believe that if we had a broad coalition with the UN and the Arab league involved this would be going better.

The administration will be there until after the election. Bush cannot pull troops out because it will make him look bad. He cannot leave with a theocracy in place, and if you have a true democracy chances are we will be looking at someone we do not want elected. It is a situation in wich we cannot win.

Peace
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Old 08-14-2003, 12:22 AM   #7
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i really don't understand how anyone ever bought the bullshit of democracy to iraq or afghanistan.
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Old 08-14-2003, 01:02 AM   #8
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Moqtada Sadr the Cleric mentioned in the first article, who was responsible for leading the younger clerics into theocratic judging of cases was in the news today. There was a riot in the area of town named after his father.

[Q]Witnesses offered a series of accounts of the helicopter's path near the red-and-white, six-story transmission tower. Some said it approached once, and a female soldier leaned out and tried to tear down the flag with a knife. Other accounts said it approached twice, with a soldier pointing a gun at a youth who climbed the tower and tried to fend off the helicopter with a metal bar.

Johnson dismissed the idea of a soldier leaning out of the helicopter. "There's no way anybody could do that," he said.

Footage of the incident aired by the satellite news channel Al-Arabiya clearly showed a helicopter hovering for several seconds near the flag, which bore an inscription of a 9th Century descendant of the prophet Muhammad known as the Mahdi. [/Q]

Then things got ugly.

[Q]Soon after, Johnson said, a crowd that began at 100 swelled to 3,000. When U.S. military vehicles later came down a main street, he said, some in the crowd attacked them with small arms and a rocket-propelled grenade. Residents dismissed that, saying that the crowd, many of them teenagers, were only throwing rocks and that U.S. soldiers opened fire randomly.

Residents said that the fatality was a boy between 10 and 11 years old. Johnson said four people were wounded. But doctors at the nearby Thawra Hospital put the figure at three. One of them was a 12-year-old boy shot in the face, said Wisam Jassim, a physician there. [/Q]

Wonderful. One said claiming rocket propelled grenades and the other claiming rocks. Sounds like the Boston Massacre.

So how does does this relate to the Cleric in the other Article?

[Q]The regions of Iraq populated by Shiite Muslims, who form the country's majority and were relentlessly repressed by Saddam Hussein's government, have remained largely quiet since the war's end. Even the most militant clerics, such as Moqtada Sadr, a young firebrand whose faction enjoys broad popular support in poorer parts of Baghdad and the southern city of Basra, have stopped short of a call to arms.

But discontent over the pace of restoring basic services has echoed through much of Iraq, and shortages of gasoline and electricity unleashed two days of protests and violence over the weekend in and around Basra. In the Baghdad neighborhood renamed after Sadr's revered father, an ayatollah believed killed by Hussein's government in 1999, it took no more than a possible miscalculation by a helicopter.

When it ended, clergy had issued a manifesto demanding an apology and giving U.S. forces a day to withdraw from Sadr City.


"We are not responsible for the reaction of people if they enter the city again," said Sheik Hadi Darraji, a leading cleric. [/Q]

So now we have an incident in the are of town named after the Cleric's father. They are now telling us not to return to their part of town. They in the article quote citizens as saying they will attack US troops.

And the article closes with this wonderful sight....the beginnings of a REVOLUTION? Maybe???

[Q]Some U.S. officials have become increasingly worried about the influence of Sadr, a junior cleric who has little religious standing but heads an organization that enjoys support among the poorest and most disenfranchised in some Shiite cities.

Over the past month, he has railed against the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council, calling it a tool of the occupation that should be dissolved. He has repeatedly urged the creation of a militia known as "The Army of the Mahdi," albeit unarmed.

After the clash, his clerical followers staged a rally atop a fire station near the transmission tower, with a crowd of hundreds waving banners below. The boy said to have fended off the helicopter was introduced.

Darraji, one of Sadr's followers, then delivered their demands: The Americans must stage a "complete and comprehensive withdrawal" within a day, issue an apology, provide compensation to the families of the dead and wounded and deliver their written agreement in English and Arabic.

"We give them one night to implement these demands without any maneuvers or delays," Darraji said.

At times in the speech, the crowd broke into chants. "Today, today is peaceful, tomorrow, tomorrow is war," one went, as the sun set over the neighborhood. "We are preparing your army, Mahdi," another intoned.

"The Americans want to provoke the people. They have a plan," said Qassem Khusaf, 33, as he watched the protest, which dispersed by nightfall. "They are provoking us to see whether we will fight or not." [/Q]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Aug13.html
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Old 08-14-2003, 02:33 AM   #9
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One interesting thing of note. This Cleric comes from one of four groups that claim to be direct decendants of the Prophet Mohammad

[Q]

IRAQ
Shiites

Updated: April 21, 2003


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Will Shiites control the new Iraq?
Most experts are certain that Iraqi Shiites, who make up some 60 percent of Iraq’s population, will play a leading role in the reconstituted country. How large a role is up in the air, because the shape of the new Iraqi government has yet to emerge and long-held rivalries among various Shiite branches and between Shiites and other Iraqis—Sunni Muslims, Kurds, and others—have just begun to play out.

Do Iraq’s Shiites want to impose an Islamic government?
Some do, including some top Shiite religious leaders in Iraq who have ties to Iran’s hard-line Shiite government. But Iraq’s Shiites are not a monolithic force, experts on Iraq say. Many Iraqi Shiites are secularists. They follow a variety of competing religious leaders who preach a range of views toward separation of religion and state. Shiites are also divided by region, class, tribal affiliation, and ethnicity. Most Shiites are Arabs, but some Kurds, Turkomen, and others are also adherents.

What’s the main difference between Sunni Islam and Shiite Islam?
The two groups differ over leadership of the Muslim community. Shiites, who account for 10 percent to 20 percent of the world’s Muslims, believe Islam’s leader should be a descendant of the Prophet Mohammed. Sunnis say leaders should be chosen through consensus. Shiites revere Ali ibn Abi Taled, the Prophet Mohammed’s cousin and son-in-law, who was killed while serving as the top leader, or Caliph, of Islam in the 7th century. His tomb is in Najaf, Iraq’s holiest Shiite city.

Which group has traditionally held power in Iraq?
The Sunnis have dominated Iraq’s politics since the victorious Western nations created Iraq at the end of World War I. Saddam Hussein’s government was led by Sunnis, particularly those from his al-Tikriti clan; Shiites were often brutally repressed. In addition to Iraq, Shiites are in the majority in Lebanon and Bahrain. Shiism is the state religion in Iran.

What are the main religious differences among Iraq’s Shiites?
Iraq experts say there are differences in religious philosophy, which are commonly reflected through adherence to various religious leaders, or ayatollahs, both living and dead. One key point of disagreement: those who believe religion and government should remain in separate spheres, and those who believe that the state should be ruled by Islamic clerics according to religious principles.

What are the main groupings of Shiites maneuvering for influence?
Iraq experts say current power appears to be gathering among three or four main Shiite religious leaders from highly respected religious families that claim to have descended from the Prophet Mohammed and have produced top Islamic scholars for generations. The leaders come from the al-Sadr family, the al-Khoei family, and the al-Hakim family. The supreme leader, however, is the current senior Shiite cleric in Iraq, the Grand Ayatollah Sayyed Ali al-Sestani.

Are any of the major Shiite religious leaders pro-American?
One was willing to cooperate publicly with America, Abdel Majid Al-Khoei, but he was murdered April 10 in Najaf just after his return from exile. The attitude of the remaining leaders appears to range from wariness about U.S. intentions to virulent opposition. The most important leaders in the al-Hakim and al-Sadr families appear to be strongly anti-U.S., reports indicate.

Why are the Shiite religious leaders largely anti-American?
Experts say U.S. support for Israel angers many Arabs, including Shiites, as does its backing for leaders such as Egypt’s president, Hosni Mubarak, and Saudi Arabia’s al- Saud monarchy. In addition, there is a strong anti-imperialist and dissident strain among the Shiites. In large part, experts say, they want to rule themselves, not be ruled by foreign, Christian occupiers.

How are Iraqi Shiite leaders chosen?
They rise by consensus through the ranks, from the level of prayer leader to ayatollah, a title awarded to those who have exhibited a great scholarly mastery of Islamic law and jurisprudence and have attracted many followers. The apex of the hierarchy is the Marja’iyyah, the title given to the top Shiite religious leader. Most of the senior clerics of the four most influential families have served as Maraji’ sometime in the past century. The seat of the Marja’iyyah has usually been in Najaf, and sometimes in the holy city of Qum in Iran.

Did Saddam Hussein choose these religious leaders?
Scholars say no. Shiites chose the leaders themselves, through a system that considered a cleric’s learning, influence, and popularity. But because, in the Shiite tradition, the rulings of religious clerics can sometimes take precedence over state power, Saddam brutally intimidated outspoken Shiite leaders. He murdered many of them, in the process creating martyrs in the eyes of Iraq’s Shiites. Many of today’s main leaders, in fact, are the sons of murdered ayatollahs and other senior Iraqi religious figures.

What does Marja’iyyah al-Sestani believe?
Scholars say the Grand Ayatollah Sayyed Ali al-Sestani, 73, espouses what is known as a quietist approach to Islam, preaching that religion should hold itself aloof from the state and shun involvement in worldly affairs. He appears to be continuing in this tradition. Early in the war, he advised Shiites not to get involved on either side in the conflict between the United States and Saddam’s regime. Some U.S. supporters interpreted that as an endorsement of the American campaign. Al-Sestani was appointed after the 1999 killing of another revered ayatollah, Muhammed al-Sadr.

How large is his following?
Most Iraqi Shiites are still thought to consider al-Sestani the highest ranking member of Iraq’s clergy, experts say. But because al-Sestani has shown little interest in running political affairs, a struggle over who will exercise overt political authority appears to have erupted. Already, two clerics have been killed in Najaf, reportedly over control of Ali’s tomb. Al-Sestani has reportedly tried to stay out of the fray by withdrawing into his house in Najaf and refusing to see visitors.

Who was killed in Najaf?
The pro-American cleric, Abdel Majid al-Khoei. A moderate who has been living in London, al-Khoei entered Najaf on April 5 with U.S. Special Forces. In the following days, he met with al-Sestani’s son, then on April 10 went to Ali’s tomb, apparently to make peace with a cleric tied to Saddam’s regime, Haidar al-Refaei. Both men were murdered when a fight broke out, apparently over who should lead Iraq’s Shiites.

What did al-Khoei believe?
Experts say he had supported a new Iraqi democracy that would provide justice to Shiites and other Iraqis but not be ruled by religious extremism. His father, also a moderate, was the top Islamic cleric in Iraq until his death in 1992. While in exile, al-Khoei was an occasional dinner guest at British Prime Minister Tony Blair’s house and was a U.S. State Department favorite. Observers say he represented the United States’ best hope for a moderate Shiite movement in Iraq.

Why was he killed?
There are many differing accounts. Most observers seem to agree that al-Khoei tried to exert too much authority too quickly, which angered many Muslims in Najaf, especially supporters of another rising Shiite leader, Muqtada al-Sadr.

Who is Muqtada al-Sadr?
He is the young son of Mohammed Sadeq al-Sadr, a Shiite ayatollah who, with two others sons, was murdered by Saddam’s regime in 1999. Pro-U.S. observers say he is among the most worrying of the ascendant Shiites forces in Iraq. He has apparently already organized his own militia group, the Jammat-i-Sadr-Than. U.S. scholars know little about him—even his age, reports of which range from 22 to 30—but fear he may support a form of radical Islam. Some of his popularity springs from lingering devotion to his father; the Shiite neighborhood in Baghdad has reportedly been renamed from Saddam City to Sadr City to honor the senior al-Sadr.

Is al-Sadr trying to remove al-Sestani?
Perhaps. Fifty fighters tied to al-Sadr reportedly besieged the senior cleric in his home for four days after the murder of al-Khoei and demanded that al-Sestani step down and leave Iraq. Al-Sestani called a number of tribal leaders to his aid and, after a stand-off, the siege was lifted.


What other Shiite religious leader is playing a role?
Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim, an Iraqi religious leader who has been living in Iran. His group, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), has been working for the overthrow of Saddam since the 1980s. SCIRI reportedly has close ties to Iranian leaders. Its militia, the 5,000-to-10,000-member Badr Brigades, was trained by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard.

What does al-Hakim believe?
Al-Hakim opposes American presence in postwar Iraq and has said he wants an Islamic government for Iraq. Whether he supports a radical Islamic theocracy like Iran’s is unclear.

What’s the relationship between al-Hakim and the United States?
Complex. The United States has long treated al-Hakim as an ally against Saddam Hussein, but now the relationship is strained. Even in the lead-up to the war, SCIRI received favored treatment from Washington, and was the main Shiite faction represented at a U.S.-sponsored Iraqi opposition conference in London last December. Recently, al-Hakim has fallen afoul of U.S. leaders; Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has told al-Hakim to keep his soldiers out of Iraq, and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) published a report that said SCIRI does not have much support among Iraqis. Al-Hakim’s group recently boycotted the recent U.S.-sponsored Iraqi leadership conference in the ancient city of Ur.

How much support does al-Hakim have?
It is difficult to know, as he is still in Iran. There have been reports that his brother recently made a brief visit to Basra and received a hero’s welcome. In addition, Shiite street protestors in southern Iraq have reportedly called for his leadership.

Have any secular Shiite leaders emerged?
One potential leader is Ahmed Chalabi, a secular Shiite exile who was airlifted into Iraq by the Pentagon along with 600 of his Free Iraqi militia fighters. He is reportedly favored by the U.S. Defense Department to play a leading role, but is viewed with skepticism by the CIA and some in the U.S. State Department. Other attempts at finding local Shiite leaders have begun. In Basra, for example, a local government council consisting largely of Shiite tribal leaders has been created. In Baghdad, a man who some press reports say is allied with Chalabi, Mohammed al-Zubaidi, has recently proclaimed himself the city’s administrator, without U.S. approval.

How important are tribal and clan ties among the Shiites?
It depends. Scholars say that in some places, especially major cities, there are many Shiites who no longer define themselves as members of one clan or another. These include many of the Shiite scientists, engineers, teachers, and bureaucrats who worked in Saddam’s regime. In other areas, tribal and clan ties that date back centuries are still important forms of self-identification. In addition, a form of rough justice, based on retribution and revenge killings between clans, is still sometimes practiced. [/Q]
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Old 08-14-2003, 08:27 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
"President Bush, bring the troops home NOW please and save our families any further agony. Put the money you will save into true homeland security and education."

I saw the press conference the Military Families and the Veterans for Peace gave today announcing the "Bring the Troops Home Now" initiative. It was very informative, especially on the living conditions the troops are dealing with. 5 men in a 12 X 14 tent in 120 degree heat. While the oil people, and the US authorities live in Sadaam's palaces.
What was most disturbing was the lack of parts for equipment or repairs. The DOD did a shitty job preparing for this war. They must have thought it would be over so fast that they wouldn't need spare parts. Our troops are suffering from Rummys cheap war, kinda reminds me of troops in Nam having to use bullets sparingly because they were in short supply. I also found horrible the cause of death lies told to one father. They told him and the media he was shot in th eback of the head by Iraqi's only to later find he stepped on a cluster bomb placed during the night and his unit wasn't informed.

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Old 08-14-2003, 08:32 AM   #11
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Re: There will NEVER be Democracy in Iraq

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


"I was merciful with her: I emptied a full magazine because I didn't want to make her suffer," explained the man, Mukdar Jabar Ali. He did it, he said, because he was sure his mother had been sullying the family name by committing adultery since he was a boy. He got a gun two weeks ago, he said, and did what he had wanted to do for years.

This "Honor Killing" bullshit has been going on for ages in many countries like Iraq. The US is doing everything wrong here- we can' t try and prevent stuff like this while everything else in Iraq is a mess - it's like trying to build a car by starting with the rear view mirror. We need the frame (the respect, trust) first before we can do anything about this. I hope but don't really believe anything will ever really be done about these types of "honor killings".. after all what do these women have to offer anyone/country for helping them?
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Old 08-14-2003, 11:21 AM   #12
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I remember Russian Foreign Minister Ivanov say more than once that "Iraq does not need democracy brought on the wings of Tomahawks"...
See for example: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory...l/iraq/1830692
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Old 08-14-2003, 11:27 AM   #13
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Re: Re: There will NEVER be Democracy in Iraq

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm


This "Honor Killing" bullshit has been going on for ages in many countries like Iraq. The US is doing everything wrong here- we can' t try and prevent stuff like this while everything else in Iraq is a mess - it's like trying to build a car by starting with the rear view mirror. We need the frame (the respect, trust) first before we can do anything about this. I hope but don't really believe anything will ever really be done about these types of "honor killings".. after all what do these women have to offer anyone/country for helping them?
Absolutely olive. Our political officials don't know anything about this stuff. How in hell can they stop stuff like this knowing nothing about it? Forget it. This burns me up. If they hadn't been such a bunch of ignoramuses about this this story might have a happier ending.
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Old 08-14-2003, 11:43 AM   #14
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or www.templetonthorp.com/de/news273
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Old 08-14-2003, 11:45 AM   #15
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Re: Re: There will NEVER be Democracy in Iraq

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
This "Honor Killing" bullshit has been going on for ages in many countries like Iraq. The US is doing everything wrong here- we can' t try and prevent stuff like this while everything else in Iraq is a mess - it's like trying to build a car by starting with the rear view mirror. We need the frame (the respect, trust) first before we can do anything about this. I hope but don't really believe anything will ever really be done about these types of "honor killings".. after all what do these women have to offer anyone/country for helping them?

What is the goal of the US at this point? To remove a dangerous leader from a volital region of the world? To change societal, cultural and religious traditions that are over 1000 years old? Is it fair to add such expectations?

The media sugar coats any analysis of Iraqi culture by Western standards. The result is the continued existance of "honor killings".

Do you think a broad-based UN-backed coalition could resolve these issues? If so, why hasn't this been addressed in the international community?
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