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Old 08-14-2003, 11:14 AM   #16
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Re: Re: Re: There will NEVER be Democracy in Iraq

Originally posted by nbcrusader

What is the goal of the US at this point? To remove a dangerous leader from a volital region of the world? To change societal, cultural and religious traditions that are over 1000 years old? Is it fair to add such expectations?

The media sugar coats any analysis of Iraqi culture by Western standards. The result is the continued existance of "honor killings".

Do you think a broad-based UN-backed coalition could resolve these issues? If so, why hasn't this been addressed in the international community?
I think the honor killings-problems and the post-war are two separate issues, definitely. I didn't like how the article made it seem like this is a new development, or we are just learning about it.

I agree, and it's a disservice to the Iraqi people and to the media customers when the Iraqi culture is sugar-coated like that. Or even how the death of US soldiers in Iraq has been sugar-coated or the issue skirted completely to not "upset" anyone.

As for the US goal- I disagree with why they got themselves into this position in the first place! But I don't think again denying the UN will help matters. As far as Iraq is concerned, it's a really confusing and difficult situaiton and we shouldn't have gotten ourselves involved in the first place. I'm afraid in order to avoid giving contrl to religious extremists we'll hand over control to another Saddam- and I'm afraid that the next-Saddam will be worse, since we don't know him at all. But the religious extremist can't be the answer. But there are many people in Iraq who feel that could be the answer. So basically, I don't think we belong there!

Sorry, it's a little frustrating.

Lastly, yes I think we need a broad-band coallition to attack the way women are treated and the condition of life in Iraq & similiar countries. Leaders need to take a stand and say we will NOT allow this to continue. But I just don't see this happening- like I said before, these women aren't standing on oil mines and I don't think "because it's wrong" is a big enough reason in the head-hancho leaders minds for why they should protect these women. Like I've said once before, equal-rights for women aren't even a high priority in this country, so I can't see $$ and effort being spent on other countries.

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Old 08-14-2003, 08:00 PM   #17
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This "another Saddam" problems gives me worries, too. It could happen. The U.S. could support someone who's an alternative to an Iran-style theocracy------isn't that what we supported during the Iran/Iraq war, much to our chagrin? Then again many of the fundamentalists are Sunni, and being a Shi'ite doesn't mean fundamentalist or even conservative. There is a liberal Shi'ite sect in Turkey, I forget the name of their group right now. Sorry, Day From Hell. The Wahhabists of Saudi Arabia are Sunni and some of their religious guys are real 's. Hell, my avatar is a sex-abuse victim from Saudi Arabia and her abuser is a member of their religious establishment!
Who knows how this stuff is going to turn out. I didn't really like it when we got ourselves in this situation, and now there doesn't seem like there's any way out. I'm frustrated.

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Old 08-15-2003, 07:56 PM   #18
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[Q]Before the prayers, crowds of worshippers chanted anti-American slogans and vowed to fight to defend their faith.

"We are students of tradition and faith," shouted Ali Hussein, 15, holding an elaborate curved sword above his head as he led other young men in a chant. "We will follow Moqtada wherever he orders us. He is in our blood."

The young religious student was referring to Moqtada al Sadr, a controversial young Shiite cleric who has a wide following in Sadr City. The area used to be known as Saddam City, but was renamed for Sadr's father - a respected cleric whom Saddam Hussein's security forces murdered in 1998 - after Saddam's overthrow last spring.

In recent weeks, the younger Sadr has threatened to raise an army of volunteers to oppose the coalition forces. But at services Friday in the holy Shiite city of Kufa, 90 miles south of Baghdad, he urged nonviolent resistance.[/Q]
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Old 08-16-2003, 04:06 AM   #19
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and i always thought that a free press in a importaint tool for democracy,...
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Old 08-16-2003, 09:10 AM   #20
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[Q]US occupation authorities shut down an Iraqi newspaper last month and have stepped up the detention of journalists for reporting on the ongoing resistance. These actions, along with many other repressive measures, indicate the true character of the “democracy” and “freedom” the American occupiers are bringing to the Iraqi people.[/Q]

Iraq is not yet a democracy, it is still a war zone. The only accurate part of the statement is that they are occupiers.

[Q]On July 21, Iraqi police accompanied by US troops broke down the front door to the Baghdad premises of Al-Mustaqila (the Independent) newspaper, ransacked its offices, confiscated equipment, and arrested the editor Abdul Sattar Shalan, whose whereabouts have not been reported since. The newspaper’s offense was the publication of an article carrying the headline “Death to All Spies and Those Who Cooperate with the US.”[/Q]

Incorrect information according to two articles I have read. While I would have shut them down for the headline, the editor was threatening to publish the names of the informants and put them on trial. Here is a little glimpse into the article:

[B]On July 13, Abdul Sattar Shalan, the editor of Baghdad's Al-Mustaqila (The Independent), wrote that his paper would reveal the names of locals who were cooperating with Americans, "so . . . the people can issue their verdict on them." He went on to say that "spilling the blood of spies is a religious and patriotic requirement." [B]

The headline bore a strong resemvlance to the threats that the coalition was receiving from resistance groups according to the Boston Globe:

The title closely echoed recent threats made by clandestine armed groups against US forces and their Iraqi collaborators.

And a common sense response from the Iraqi Council who were recognized by the UN Security Council this week, if I am not mistaken. I may be, but I have not checked.

''The Coalitional Provisional Authority supports and encourages the development of a free and responsible Iraqi press,'' the agency said in a statement. But it said Mustaqila ''has chosen to threaten the basic human rights of Iraqi citizens'' and published a ''clearly inciteful article,'' putting it in violation of occupation authority rules regarding the media......It said the article in question was ''inconsistent with all laws, religious principles, and human rights,'' and that the right to media dissent should not extend to ''calling for the shedding of others' blood.''

[Q]According to a press release put out by the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), as the occupation forces headed by Paul Bremer are known, the newspaper violated the CPA’s Order Number 14 on Prohibited Media Activity by inciting violence. Ironically, the home page of the CPA’s web site prominently features a photo of Saddam Hussein and the $25 million reward offered for information leading to his capture or death, alongside photos of his two dead sons with Xs drawn across their heads.[/Q]

I did not know that the web site put out by the military counted as Media. Nice try at demonstrating hypocrasy.

[Q]Western media reports give no indication of having seen or verified the original Al-Mustaqila article, only repeating the CPA’s version of its headline. However, a journalist at the newspaper said the offending article was a news story on anti-US demonstrations in Fallujah, and the headline quoted a Muslim cleric involved in the organization of the protest.[/Q]

Well, so far every article I have found on Al-Mustaqila says otherwise.

[Q]The CPA has given its administrator, as Bremer is officially titled, unlimited authority under Order Number 14 “to seize any prohibited materials and production equipment and seal off any operating premises” without warning and without compensation, as well as to arrest and prosecute those found in violation. Under the order, sentencing is to be carried out by the “relevant authorities,” which can only mean the CPA itself, as there is no functioning Iraqi judicial system. Appeals are allowed in writing only to the administrator himself.[/Q]

Did you read your own opening paragraph? It said Iraqi police with the Us Military. Sounds like local authorities were involved.

[Q]The closure of Al-Mustaqila follows the forced shutdown of the radio station Sawt Bagdad (Voice of Baghdad) a month after it went on the air, because of its ties with Mohammed Mohsen al-Zubaidi, the self-proclaimed “mayor of Baghdad,” who was removed by the US forces in April. In June, occupation forces raided the distribution center of the Shi’ite newspaper Sadda-al-Auma in Najaf, impounding copies of an edition that supposedly encouraged resistance against Americans.[/Q]

1st of all the Raio station was not something that existed before the war. It was a propaganda tool for the so called Mayor of Bagdhad who was calling on Iraqi's to ROB BANKS. While the article would love to make it look like the US came in and closed an innocent station, they were not innocent according to the research I have done.

[Q]Al-Adala newspaper, one of several affiliated with the Shi’ite Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution, reported that on July 19 eighteen US soldiers backed by six armored vehicles raided the newspaper’s Baghdad offices, breaking down doors, tearing up furniture, destroying copiers and other equipment, seizing computers and even robbing several people, including one visitor who lost $20,000.[/Q]

I have only been able to find one article in reference to this event. I believe it occured, but I do not believe a US Soldier robbed a man. The article I found indicated that the soldiers came in and confiscated computers. The paper has links to the militant cleric that I mentioned in my posts above "Moqtada Sadr".

[Q]The last few weeks have also seen the detention of numerous journalists whose reporting has run afoul of the occupation authorities. On July 1, two Iranian journalists filming a documentary in southern Iraq for the state-run Iranian network were arrested, along with their interpreter and their driver, on unspecified charges of “security violations.” Their belongings were removed a week later from the hotel where they had been staying, and on July 15, US authorities informed the Iranian consul that the reporters had been taken to the detention center at the Baghdad airport. No further information on the detainees’ alleged illegal activities has been released.[/Q]

Here is the only quote I can find on this situation.

"They claim to be journalists, but they were certainly not acting in a journalistic capacity when they were arrested."

I have no problems with this.

[Q]On July 26, four Turkish journalists were detained for 90 minutes, and their digital photos of soldiers were erased. On the same day, an Al-Jazeerah satellite television network cameraman in the northern city of Mosul was arrested along with his driver while filming an attack on American forces. They were released the next day after going on hunger strike to protest their arrest, but their film was confiscated. Another crew from Al-Jazeerah was detained briefly on July 22 while filming protests against the US-British presence.[/Q]

As for the digital camera, who knows what was on it. Mayber there was a informant on it that would have been in danger. The article does not give enough information, and given the lack of details, it does not surprise me.

As for the Al-Jazeerah reporters, I would want the film too. To use to train soldiers how the attakcs occur. To see who was doing the attack.

[Q]On July 27, the Japanese journalist Kazutaka Sato was beaten by US soldiers and detained for an hour until other journalists came to look for him. He was grabbed while filming a US attack on a Baghdad residence thought to be sheltering Saddam Hussein. Although Hussein was nowhere to be found, five civilians were killed in the raid. The group Reporters Without Borders quoted Sato as saying, “It seems they had something to hide, perhaps the bodies of civilians.”[/Q]

This is the only case in which I agree with the article. The soldiers should be prosected for their behavior.
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Old 08-16-2003, 09:13 AM   #21
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Looks like Freedom of the Press is spreading throughout Iraq when the press does not encourage Killing, Looting....ect.
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Old 08-16-2003, 05:03 PM   #22
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The one bright spot in the whole mess is the new freedom for the press. There are new newspapers, people are writing what they want, and people are saying what they believe, something they couldn't do under Saddam. Still, this isn't going to turn on the electricity or provide clean water. That's the crux of the problem.
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Old 08-17-2003, 07:10 PM   #23
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A Shiite muslim chants anti-American slogans prior to Friday prayers at the poorest district of Baghdad, Iraq known as Al Sadr City on Friday Aug. 15, 2003. Tens of thousands of Shiite muslims gathered to hear their religious leaders speak about the apology that the U.S. forces delivered after an incident involving a helicopter last Aug. 13 that left one Iraqi dead and four wounded. (AP Photo/Dario Lopez-Mills)
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Old 08-19-2003, 08:18 PM   #24
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We should pray that things get better over there!

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Old 08-19-2003, 08:23 PM   #25
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welcome to fym tyrone
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:01 PM   #26
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Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is on the rise!!!

Al-Sadr bloc talks of alliance with Sunnis, Christians

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- One day after suspending participation in Iraq's government, the bloc loyal to anti-U.S. Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr announced a possible new political alliance with Sunnis and Christians.

Calling the group a "national front," the head of al-Sadr's bloc in Parliament -- Falah Hassan Shanshel -- said the groups would target the U.N. Security Council's decision to extend the mandate of the 160,000 multinational force in Iraq for another year.

The formation of such an alliance has been in the works for at least two months, said Saleh al-Mutlag, a prominent Sunni politician and vocal critic of al-Maliki.

He called the alliance a nonsectarian, national patriotic front, drawing from different areas of the country and also including secularists, Kurds, Yazidis, Turkmens and clerics.

The group does not include the Mehdi Army, a militia loyal to al-Sadr, al-Mutlag said, adding that he believes the militia should dissolve. He said that al-Sadr himself is "not negative" about the alliance and that it could be achieved peacefully.

Members of the alliance are working with insurgents to get them to lay down their arms, al-Mutlag said. He emphasized that a withdrawal table for U.S. troops would convince insurgents Americans won't stay.
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:03 PM   #27
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08-13-2003 07:54 PM

That was the start of this thread.....

Damn....How close to the center of a bullseye was I?
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:07 PM   #28
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Pretty damn close...
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:30 PM   #29
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You should be advising the government, Dread!

Oh wait a minute, you probably would have been fired for suggesting such negative scenarios.
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:15 PM   #30
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Originally posted by anitram
Islam is a theocracy. So is Judaism. They share that in common, their religion beliefs permeate the social fabric, at least historically speaking.

I don't understand all this talk about democracy in Iraq. When was Iraq a democracy? Never. Now we think we'll march in there with our lofty ideas and goals of what life should be like and these people will fall in line and thank us for our brilliance.

Also what is so "shocking" about an honour killing. I mean its not like the usa has a clean record when it comes to people murdering other people for pathetic reasons, im sure they've been plenty of 'honour' killings in the states they just obviously arn't called that.

I just have never understood why people seem to have thought that having american troops swoop into a country, bomb the shit out of it, kill so fucking many innocent people (and even not so innocent people, but still HUMANS who were DEFENDING their country from ASSULT) cause a civil war, complete and utter unrest and then expect that country to do their bidding change to the 'oh so wonderful democracy way like us'
America on the whole with the message it sends out is like a cesspool of corruption, violence, absolute decadence, obesity and sexual perversaty. Obviously thats not all america and the people in it, but a lot of what the media portrays and how the us comes accross, this is the msg that gets out, and then you wonder why other countries don't want to be like the us.

I just think the situation is so fucked up I don't know where to begin. Its like you've gone into a country screwed up all the good, replaced evil with evil let all the psychos run around unopposed while "accidently" killing civilians and then saying 'alright, you look after ya selfs now...see ya!'
I don't want any more civilians and soldiers killed, but i dont think cut and running will do anything but hinder the problem more..

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