THEOCACY WATCH: Rep. Tancredo, R-CO: "...take out their holy sites" - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-19-2005, 05:33 PM   #16
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Originally posted by deep


really?

i recall many clapping and dancing

as we suppiled Iraq with arms
to offset the arms we had sold to Iran ( Shah Reza)
Touche!
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Old 07-19-2005, 06:54 PM   #17
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perhaps the enemy is religion itself.
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Old 07-19-2005, 07:03 PM   #18
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perhaps the enemy is religion itself.


or, specific practices of any religion.

once again ...

"From the first moment I looked into that horror on Sept. 11, into that fireball, into that explosion of horror, I knew it. I knew it before anything was said about those who did it or why. I recognized an old companion. I recognized religion. Look, I am a priest for over 30 years. Religion is my life, it's my vocation, it's my existence. I'd give my life for it; I hope to have the courage. Therefore, I know it.

And I know, and recognized that day, that the same force, energy, sense, instinct, whatever, passion -- because religion can be a passion -- the same passion that motivates religious people to do great things is the same one that that day brought all that destruction. When they said that the people who did it did it in the name of God, I wasn't the slightest bit surprised. It only confirmed what I knew. I recognized it.

I recognized this thirst, this demand for the absolute. Because if you don't hang on to the unchanging, to the absolute, to that which cannot disappear, you might disappear. I recognized that this thirst for the never-ending, the permanent, the wonders of all things, this intolerance or fear of diversity, that which is different -- these are characteristics of religion. And I knew that that force could take you to do great things. But I knew that there was no greater and more destructive force on the surface of this earth than the religious passion.

My friends in the business, religious leaders, we all took to the streets to try to salvage something of it. Funny, suddenly every government official became a religious leader, reassuring us that all religions are for peace. I understand. It was embarrassing. And now I think we have a religious duty to face this ambivalence about religion, and to do something about it. To promote that which makes it a constructive force and to protect us from that which makes it a destructive force. ..." -- Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete
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Old 07-19-2005, 07:14 PM   #19
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Originally posted by Irvine511

or, specific practices of any religion.
yes, because somehow placing hope in myth is constructive as long as you don't blow anyone up. religion along with nationalism are two of the great plagues of humanity.
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Old 07-19-2005, 07:20 PM   #20
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religion along with nationalism are two of the great plagues of humanity.


i'd agree with that.

but i'd also argue that they can be great creative forces, when practiced correctly.
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Old 07-19-2005, 07:27 PM   #21
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but i'd also argue that they can be great creative forces, when practiced correctly.
honestly, i don't see how.
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Old 07-20-2005, 06:45 AM   #22
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honestly, i don't see how.


i think that belief in something "greater" than the individual -- working towards a spirit, or an idea -- can push man himself to greater heights if he works towards this ideal and tries to make it real. one may never realize the ideal itself, but what counts is the work and improvements made.

i know that's very vague ... let me give you an example: one thing that i think is great about the United States is that citizenship does not imply a specific race. truly, anyone can become a citizen of the US, and be culturally and legally and ethnically "American," whereas i'll never be ethnically Chinese. to me, that's a wonderful ideal, particularly in contrast to European nation-states that only just now are beginning to view themselves as having a sprit or essence that is independent of race. therefore, what is unique about American nationlism is that it is not inherently racist, whereas you could argue that nearly every other form of nationalism (at least in the near past) is, by definition, racist.
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Old 07-20-2005, 07:02 AM   #23
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Originally posted by Irvine511



in the view of this congressmen, the "enemy" is Islam itself.
It seems we all disagree with Tancredo.

However, who would you define as the "enemy"?
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Old 07-20-2005, 07:05 AM   #24
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Originally posted by Irvine511
[B]i think that belief in something "greater" than the individual -- working towards a spirit, or an idea -- can push man himself to greater heights if he works towards this ideal and tries to make it real. one may never realize the ideal itself, but what counts is the work and improvements made.
i would have to argue that there are a variety of more worthwhile things to work toward than religious fulfillment no matter its nature. why must man invert his reality, place all qualities he would like to have himself into a perfect diety instead, and then subjugate himself to said deity? you either end up with a club that just makes people feel better about themselves or a hierarchial authoritarian system interested in wealth and behavioral control. man does not need god or religious texts to work toward something greater. we are perfectly capable of finding our way ourselves.

Quote:
what is unique about American nationlism is that it is not inherently racist, whereas you could argue that nearly every other form of nationalism (at least in the near past) is, by definition, racist.
this may not technically qualify as racism but it is very similar. the u.s. is the greatest country in the world so therefore its citizens are the greatest group of people in the world. anytime a group of humans are seen as superior to another we're going to have trouble.
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Old 07-20-2005, 07:16 AM   #25
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This is really stupid. Nuking Mecca? What would that accomplish?
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Old 07-20-2005, 07:19 AM   #26
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It would sure make any prospective terrorist think twice ~ the problem is that nuking mecca would accomplish exactly the type of apocalypse that they seek to bring about and they would opt for an attack hoping for a worldwide nuclear war.
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Old 07-20-2005, 07:26 AM   #27
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Well if they nuke us the whole world is fucked anyway so what does it really matter?
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Old 07-20-2005, 07:27 AM   #28
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It would sure make any prospective terrorist think twice ~ the problem is that nuking mecca would accomplish exactly the type of apocalypse that they seek to bring about and they would opt for an attack hoping for a worldwide nuclear war.
So that would be playing right into their hands, so to speak. They'd follow that by attacking Rome, perhaps.
Gosh, I'm glad this guy is a Congressman and not a General.
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Old 07-20-2005, 08:05 AM   #29
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


It seems we all disagree with Tancredo.

However, who would you define as the "enemy"?


i don't think "the enemy" can be summed up succinctly. "the enemy" can appear in the form of Saudi Arabian hijackers, or homegrown first generation Anglo-Pakistanis with bombs in their backpacks. this is a war of ideas, not of territory.

i think there are myriad causes that help create the conditions that create "the enemy" -- the two most important is the strong sense of humiliation felt by many who broadly identify as Muslim, and the second has been the radicalization of certain elements within Islam.

when you've got a 20 year old kid who hates himself and sees no future and then attach him to the sense of the absolute that only religion can provide, it transforms his world into a rigid black-and-white world where good is good, bad is bad, there are believers and there are infidels, and he is not of that world. so he can blow it up.
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Old 07-20-2005, 08:10 AM   #30
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Originally posted by Se7en


i would have to argue that there are a variety of more worthwhile things to work toward than religious fulfillment no matter its nature. why must man invert his reality, place all qualities he would like to have himself into a perfect diety instead, and then subjugate himself to said deity? you either end up with a club that just makes people feel better about themselves or a hierarchial authoritarian system interested in wealth and behavioral control. man does not need god or religious texts to work toward something greater. we are perfectly capable of finding our way ourselves.



this may not technically qualify as racism but it is very similar. the u.s. is the greatest country in the world so therefore its citizens are the greatest group of people in the world. anytime a group of humans are seen as superior to another we're going to have trouble.

hey, i generally agree with you. i tend to despise most nationalism, and i'm growing increasingly intolerant of the encroachment of highly subjective religious beliefs on a secular society (gosh, just look at the Harry Potter thread ... i removed myself once i started being told that the Devil wants to tempt me).

you bring up a good point about US nationalism, but all i was pointing out was the good thing about US nationalism is that it pretty much cannot be racist. not that it is, objectively, a good thing, but that this aspect of it is a good thing.

i think that both religion and nationalism have the potential to be forces for good, but too often in the hands of men they are negative forces.

maybe it's the heat, but i've really seen most of the good will i had felt towards the outwardly devout on this forum dissipate.

several people -- through their sanctimony, coupled with a whole "i'm just the messenger!" cop-out -- in here make great cases for Atheism.
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