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Old 05-12-2003, 09:07 PM   #16
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Originally posted by STING2
Is it to much to ask that people try to be more objective in their criticism? How can anyone honestly say that President Bush is Hitler reincarnated? How does a statement like that help anything or change anything?
Well, to some people, some of the things that Bush does may seem Hitler-esque to them, which is why they say that-most people, when they hear the name Hitler, do not think of nice, happy things. So by saying he's similar to Hitler is their way of showing people how wrong he is in whatever it is he's doing, therefore possibly changing public opinion, therefore making people less likely to vote for him in the next election-that's what they hope to accomplish by saying that.

There's been comparisons of the Bush administration to McCarthy at times as of late because some of the things going on sound very similar to what McCarthy did.

It may be melodramatic, but people do have their reasons for why they say what they do.

Besides, people who don't support Democratic presidents have been known to get melodramatic themselves.

It happens all around with politicians.

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Old 05-12-2003, 09:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Is it to much to ask that people try to be more objective in their criticism? How can anyone honestly say that President Bush is Hitler reincarnated? How does a statement like that help anything or change anything?
I think it is important to ask why people make this comparison, which I agree is extreme. I would answer, but I deal with the subject a bit in my thesis...and I think it is too good to give away in the forum.

But let's go back to the Clinton era. There were "Impeach Clinton" bumper stickers in 1993, before any of the scandals. Is it too much to ask that people try to be more objective in their criticism? If there's anything I dislike more than irrationality is double-standards.

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Old 05-12-2003, 09:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
But let's go back to the Clinton era. There were "Impeach Clinton" bumper stickers in 1993, before any of the scandals. Is it too much to ask that people try to be more objective in their criticism? If there's anything I dislike more than irrationality is double-standards.

Melon
Exactly.

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Old 05-12-2003, 10:16 PM   #19
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Melon,

I'm really talking more about some statements that are made in this forum. I never put impeach Clinton on my bumper sticker or anything like that. I too do not like double standards I often see, and I have seen a few of them in this forum.

Anyone here who thinks Bush is anything like Hitler probably has not researched Hitler enough. The comparison is totally absurd and certainly not objective or helpful.
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Old 05-12-2003, 10:44 PM   #20
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I agree with Sting. I don't agree with comparing Bush and Hitler. Hitler killed six million Jews in concentration camps. Bush has done some things not everyone likes. Personally, I'm not a Bush supporter. I don't like alot of his policies and I don't like some of the people in his cabinet, Rumsfeld in particular. That doesn't make him a Hitler.
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Old 05-12-2003, 10:51 PM   #21
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I agree with you STING2, but I do think he and his administration are a real danger to the US. That is in the realm of civil liberties, women's rights, and non-corporate governance.

So in a way he has comparisons with Hitlers style or maybe it's a comparison of his mandate of hate for dissent- With us or against us.
I'm against us as far as his visions are concerned and I am a Patriot. Actually it is sad to me that the warm fuzzies I felt as an American after 9/11 have disintegrated into a hate and fear of the direction of my country.
I feel all the progress we have made since the 60's into becoming a progressive unifying global society are being reversed at such a rate that it may take a decade to reverse. I know some people are happy with the attempted return to the 50's, but the world has changed and we must keep attuned.
Just my .02.
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Old 05-13-2003, 12:53 AM   #22
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Scarletwine,

I think it would be more objective to say that you have strong differences with the Bush Administration on policy issues and the direction he is leading the country in. But you have to remember that there are 10s of millions of people who want this country to go in that direction and support the Presidents policies.

Saying Bush is a "real danger" to the USA to me implies that what Bush is doing is more serious than the need to draft articles of impeachment against him. To me it says people should revolt and throw him out of office now, like a dictator.

Remember, Bush currently has a 65% approval rating, so a lot of people are happy with the way he has been handling everything.

We'll have to see what the nation decides as whole in 2004. Support for the war in Iraq is overwhelming, above 80%. In fact on Foreign Policy, the American People are giving Bush an A+.
His weak point is the economy. If Bush cannot improve the economy at all in the next 8 months, then the Democrats might have an easy victory in 2004. I say 8 months because noticable statistical improvements from economists take time to trickle down to all the voters. Having the economy turn around in October of 2004 would be far to late.

For the democrats to win in 2004, the economy must continue to remain weak( or get worse) for the next 8 months. The Democratic nominee process must produce a candidate that somehow they all unite behind and who is not to bruised up from the Democratic nomination process. In addition, he/she must have an alternative economic plan for the country that voters will believe is at least worth a try.

Bush's success and continued success in Foreign Policy makes Foreign Policy itself less of an issue in 2004. Voters react to problems usually and currently foreign policy is not a problem in the general sense. But that could change very quickly of course.

This campaign is shaping up to like the 1992 campaign. But don't count on the results to be the same. The economy is a big issue and will probably decide the election. If Bush can turn the economy around by early 2004, he wins in November 2004. If he can't and the Democrats are able to nominate a strong candidate with an alternative economic program that voters believe could be better, Bush is out. But I think there is a third senerio that is most likely. Bush is unable to improve the economy, but the democracts are unable to nominate a really strong candidate and offer an effective alternative to Bush's handling of the economy. In this case, I predict the election could be even tighter than the 2000 election. I wonder what democrats would say if they win the electoral vote but lose the popular vote to Bush?

Don't count on third parties in 2004 since Campaign finance reform is at a standstill.

As of right now, I'll be voting for Bush in 2004. I strongly support many of his policies and believe that in general, he is taking the country in the right direction.
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Old 05-13-2003, 05:26 AM   #23
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Of course we can find similarities between bush and Hitler, they both might use the foreign politics to get media atention away from inner problems...
...BUT you can also compare Hitler and me because we're both vegetarians.

-> it's completely nonsense to compare them.

It's verry modern to compare Hitler to people you don't like, but imho only people who didn't understand what hitler was doing can do that

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Old 05-13-2003, 09:06 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Remember, Bush currently has a 65% approval rating, so a lot of people are happy with the way he has been handling everything.
NO!!!!!! That is a general overall number. If you ask Americans about their approval of Bush handling the economy, its barely 50%, if that. Please reread our Bush economic threads Sting.

As for the Hitler reference, Hitler was an asshole in a smart, coniving way. The scariest thing about the guy was that he was calculating and premeditated in his maliciousness. Frankly, I think Bush is too dumb to do that. And on a more serious note, while I feel the Hitler reference is totally wrong, there are definite parallels between the Bush administration and McCarthyism, which is not as scary as Hitler but still scary.

And if full disclosure, in 1993 I had an "Impeach Hillary" button.
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Old 05-13-2003, 01:43 PM   #25
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sharky,

I know that the 65% is a general overall number. But it symbolizes the general overall feeling of the people about Bush. Election day is again, the general overall feeling people have about the candidates. So in that respect 65% is an excellant number and higher than many other prior presidents who were "popular".

I am shocked that Bush has the support of nearly 50% of the people on the economy. With the economy in the ruts like this, to have nearly 50% support on that issue is amazing. Watch that support rise if and when the economy starts to improve. All Bush really needs to ensure a win in 2004 is 51% of the people supporting him on the economy. Looks like he is almost there.
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Old 05-13-2003, 03:07 PM   #26
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Bush's numbers on the economy could change for the worse if the unemployment stats get higher or something. A closer election than 2000? GAWD!!! Don't put me through another cliff-hanger election. I've never been so damn nervous in my life.
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Old 05-13-2003, 03:09 PM   #27
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I can't wait till I can vote in two countries!
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Old 05-13-2003, 03:46 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Remember, Bush currently has a 65% approval rating, so a lot of people are happy with the way he has been handling everything.

This doesn't mean the way he's handling things is right, though. Wouldn't it be interesting to see approval polls of the Southern governors in the late 50s and 60s? I'm sure they had the majority on their side, too.
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Old 05-13-2003, 04:00 PM   #29
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Good point ^^^^.

Sting2, even if the majority of Americans did support Bush, does that automatically make what he's doing right?

The majority can be wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
And on a more serious note, while I feel the Hitler reference is totally wrong, there are definite parallels between the Bush administration and McCarthyism, which is not as scary as Hitler but still scary.
Exactly.

And ditto to what Scarletwine said as well.

Angela
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Old 05-13-2003, 04:02 PM   #30
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An interesting article bySheldon Wolin - professor emeritus of politics at Princeton

Inverted Totalitarianism - How the Bush regime is effecting the transformation to a fascist-like state.
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030519&s=wolin

Some excerpts:

T"he war on Iraq has so monopolized public attention as to obscure the regime change taking place in the Homeland. We may have invaded Iraq to bring in democracy and bring down a totalitarian regime, but in the process our own system may be moving closer to the latter and further weakening the former. The change has been intimated by the sudden popularity of two political terms rarely applied earlier to the American political system. "Empire" and "superpower" both suggest that a new system of power, concentrated and expansive, has come into existence and supplanted the old terms. "Empire" and "superpower" accurately symbolize the projection of American power abroad, but for that reason they obscure the internal consequences. Consider how odd it would sound if we were to refer to "the Constitution of the American Empire" or "superpower democracy." The reason they ring false is that "constitution" signifies limitations on power, while "democracy" commonly refers to the active involvement of citizens with their government and the responsiveness of government to its citizens. For their part, "empire" and "superpower" stand for the surpassing of limits and the dwarfing of the citizenry."

...

"Thus the elements are in place: a weak legislative body, a legal system that is both compliant and repressive, a party system in which one party, whether in opposition or in the majority, is bent upon reconstituting the existing system so as to permanently favor a ruling class of the wealthy, the well-connected and the corporate, while leaving the poorer citizens with a sense of helplessness and political despair, and, at the same time, keeping the middle classes dangling between fear of unemployment and expectations of fantastic rewards once the new economy recovers. That scheme is abetted by a sycophantic and increasingly concentrated media; by the integration of universities with their corporate benefactors; by a propaganda machine institutionalized in well-funded think tanks and conservative foundations; by the increasingly closer cooperation between local police and national law enforcement agencies aimed at identifying terrorists, suspicious aliens and domestic dissidents.

What is at stake, then, is nothing less than the attempted transformation of a tolerably free society into a variant of the extreme regimes of the past century. In that context, the national elections of 2004 represent a crisis in its original meaning, a turning point. The question for citizens is: Which way?"

Hopefully the country realizes what Bush and cronies are really up to and chooses the correct way.
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