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Old 07-19-2008, 12:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by LemonMelon View Post
Yes.

Threads like this are precisely why I never bother with FYM anymore; arrogant interferencers using someone else's opinion to support their own opinions, or to rile others up. The latter happens surprisingly often, as evidenced here.
Yep. Like The Sad Punk, I'm an atheist and I'm with this entirely. A_W acknowledges it himself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
Nobody bothers to read agreeable threads.
I consider this to be borderline trolling; intentionally using inflammatory subject lines and phrasings to incite an impassioned response and get a rise out of people with a different perspective. It is certainly not a mature or sensible way to frame a debate and encourage positive, constructive intellectual engagement.

I, for one, would rather discuss this topic reasonably, in a thread that isn't overtly skewed to incite those on one particular side of the fence.
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Old 07-19-2008, 01:22 PM   #32
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Hey, Wanderer, why not make a thread entitled "those with spiritual beliefs are fools" without including an article and be done with it? I'm sure you'll find a crowd that will pat you on the head for your diligence.
I don't know that there really is a "crowd" here who is as religious (sorry, A_W) about being an atheist as A_W is.

I have just enough belief not to be an agnostic, but I'm close. I find a lot of A_W's posts on religion to be just as off putting as the posts from fundamentalists or other very religious people who use their views in a way that offends me. I don't think I'm the only one so I don't really know what "crowd" you're talking about here. Maybe I'm forgetting some people.
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Old 07-19-2008, 02:05 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I don't know that there really is a "crowd" here who is as religious (sorry, A_W) about being an atheist as A_W is.

I have just enough belief not to be an agnostic, but I'm close. I find a lot of A_W's posts on religion to be just as off putting as the posts from fundamentalists or other very religious people who use their views in a way that offends me. I don't think I'm the only one so I don't really know what "crowd" you're talking about here. Maybe I'm forgetting some people.
"Crowd" is a fairly vague term, but I probably mean 4 or 5 people. Enough to keep a thread going. Not including you in on that necessarily. You certainly aren't wrong about A_W being arguably the most rabid atheist here, but there are a number that are on his wavelength. And, honestly, I have no issue with that at all. The problem I have is with threads that are created specifically to be incendiary.
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Old 07-19-2008, 02:28 PM   #34
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Oooohhh! Looks a bit like a Jets vs Sharks showdown! Yep, it's the evil, mean atheists (unfortunately there only seems to be A_Wanderer in this group -- but he's a toughie) vs the Superthread chat group!!!

OK you all know the rules -- nothing is out of bounds and it's a fight to the DEATH!!! Ready, set...FIGHT!!!

(Place your bets now....)
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Old 07-19-2008, 02:53 PM   #35
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I am a little bit puzzled why some believers get upset about anything that is posted.

How can an idea, thought, or any written expression threaten your belief?

Sean always has a calm demeanor,
his responses lead me to believe that he is comfortable with and secure in his beliefs.
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Old 07-19-2008, 03:05 PM   #36
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I am a little bit puzzled why some believers get upset about anything that is posted.
Way to read between the lines.

Quote:
How can an idea, thought, or any written expression threaten your belief?
It doesn't. That's the point.
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Old 07-19-2008, 05:28 PM   #37
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A_W has long believed in the value of mockery in debate.

I personally don't agree with him, but his posts generally don't bother me.

That said, I think the points about the "taunting" thread titles is a good one. I just don't think he's going to stop (unless the mods see fit to make him) because he really doesn't see anything "wrong" with it.
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Old 07-19-2008, 05:43 PM   #38
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Again, I would like to state that I have no issue at all with A_W's beliefs (or lack thereof, depending on your view). None at all. And he's welcome to state them. However, there is such a thing as spam, there is such a thing as inflammatory statements, and there is such a thing as trolling, and none of those things belong in the act of giving an opinion (which, ultimately, is what stating your spiritual beliefs amounts to in discussions such as these). A_W crossed all of those lines to some extent with this thread. It's spam because he's made several threads that were very similar in theme to this one over the past few months, it's inflammatory because, well...look at the thread title, and it's trolling because he used that thread title in order to attract views. I don't feel that it's entirely out of line to state this, and I don't feel that I'm entirely dismissing the topic at hand, because my issue is more with the quantity of these threads than their content (though I do find the statement made in the thread title personally insulting).

Now, in regards to the "question" brought up by this thread, I assume that the illusion of atheists having greater intellects than theists largely stems from the fact that atheists rely solely on facts and knowledge to decide their belief systems; which is the very thing that intellects are measured by.

In other news, 2+2=4.
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Old 07-19-2008, 05:54 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
A_W has long believed in the value of mockery in debate.

I personally don't agree with him, but his posts generally don't bother me.

That said, I think the points about the "taunting" thread titles is a good one. I just don't think he's going to stop (unless the mods see fit to make him) because he really doesn't see anything "wrong" with it.
His style is different than yours

and different than mine

I might have cut and pasted something from the article like

Belief in God is much lower among academics.. scholars have higher IQs


which I have done in the past.

I would not have posted this article, because I don't think it matters to me

any more than articles than claim Democrats or Republicans are smarter.

all this being said

I do appreciate AW posts

We need a varied point of view for FYM to be interesting

people seem to be more sensitive to anything that they feel may not be flattering to their group

but are indifferent, when the less than flattering remarks are directed at others
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Old 07-19-2008, 06:06 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by LemonMelon View Post
Again, I would like to state that I have no issue at all with A_W's beliefs (or lack thereof, depending on your view). None at all. And he's welcome to state them. However, there is such a thing as spam, there is such a thing as inflammatory statements, and there is such a thing as trolling, and none of those things belong in the act of giving an opinion (which, ultimately, is what stating your spiritual beliefs amounts to in discussions such as these). A_W crossed all of those lines to some extent with this thread. It's spam because he's made several threads that were very similar in theme to this one over the past few months, it's inflammatory because, well...look at the thread title, and it's trolling because he used that thread title in order to attract views. I don't feel that it's entirely out of line to state this, and I don't feel that I'm entirely dismissing the topic at hand, because my issue is more with the quantity of these threads than their content (though I do find the statement made in the thread title personally insulting).

I can understand where you are coming from

and I might even agree with you


if he was posting these items in:

The Goal is Soul

Quote:
The Goal Is Soul

This is a general discussion area about U2 and their faith as found in their lyrics, their own words, as well as books written by others on this subject of their spirituality. Not to be used for debates/discussions on religion (use FYM for that).
FYM is set up to be:
an off-topic forum. Discuss politics, spirituality, religion, world events.

As I have previously stated,
I do think it would have been better to have used a different thread title.
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Old 07-19-2008, 06:14 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
I can understand where you are coming from

and I might even agree with you


if he was posting these items in:

The Goal is Soul



FYM is set up to be:
an off-topic forum. Discuss politics, spirituality, religion, world events.

As I have previously stated,
I do think it would have been better to have used a different thread title.
Oh, OK, I understand where you're coming from here but, again, it's not necessarily the topic that bothers me so much as the manner in which it's being discussed and, moreso, the quantity of threads he's made of a similar topic. It reminds me of Harry Vest's regular Hillary threads. Sure, they are in the right section, but are they really necessary? Are they not obviously biased in favor of one particular opinion? Threads like that are hardly a breeding ground for thoughtful discussion.

Same thing here, though I would say that it's more agreeable than some of the threads I'm comparing it to.

In any case, it's his choice, and if the mods choose not to intervene, then they must not think it's a big deal, and I'm probably overreacting.
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Old 07-19-2008, 06:15 PM   #42
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I've gone through many religious beliefs in my time on this earth. None of them I practice or fully believe in now. With that said, I still have an abiding since of right and wrong and hope that doesn't encompass any one religion, or lack there of.
I truly don't believe there's a perfect way to believe.
I know there is something more than what I am. I try to improve on it every day. That's my faith.
No matter that it's proven or not, in most cases it isn't.
But, It gets me up and though everyday.
I guess that's the most important.
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Old 07-19-2008, 06:22 PM   #43
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OK I have to confess I haven't read all the posts in this thread I just want to echo a point made by Anitram-To me, athiests bent on "converting" people to their idea that there is no God are in a similar league to fundamentalists who try to "convert" athiests into believing that there is a God

The two extremes have more in common than they would like to think.
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Old 07-19-2008, 06:25 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indra View Post
Oooohhh! Looks a bit like a Jets vs Sharks showdown! Yep, it's the evil, mean atheists (unfortunately there only seems to be A_Wanderer in this group -- but he's a toughie) vs the Superthread chat group!!!

OK you all know the rules -- nothing is out of bounds and it's a fight to the DEATH!!! Ready, set...FIGHT!!!

(Place your bets now....)


Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
A_W has long believed in the value of mockery in debate.

I personally don't agree with him, but his posts generally don't bother me.

That said, I think the points about the "taunting" thread titles is a good one. I just don't think he's going to stop (unless the mods see fit to make him) because he really doesn't see anything "wrong" with it.
There have been a lot of thread titles in recent months that have a tabloid journalism, sensational feel to them, and not much has been said about those. The difference here is, I doubt that A_Wanderer was titling this thread in as earnest a way as the other threads were titled. I saw it as him being intentionally laconic and perhaps a little tongue in cheek.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonMelon View Post
However, there is such a thing as spam, there is such a thing as inflammatory statements, and there is such a thing as trolling, and none of those things belong in the act of giving an opinion (which, ultimately, is what stating your spiritual beliefs amounts to in discussions such as these). A_W crossed all of those lines to some extent with this thread. It's spam because he's made several threads that were very similar in theme to this one over the past few months, it's inflammatory because, well...look at the thread title, and it's trolling because he used that thread title in order to attract views.
I don't see how this thread is spam or trolling, any more than starting new political threads would be, when a new thread is created based on a new news item about a political party or a politician. They may lead to what essentially boils down to the same type of discussion, but generally, the subject is introduced in a new context in the first post. In this case, A_Wanderer cited a new study, and attempted to discuss the subject in the context of the study.
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Old 07-19-2008, 06:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
There have been a lot of thread titles in recent months that have a tabloid journalism, sensational feel to them, and not much has been said about those. The difference here is, I doubt that A_Wanderer was titling this thread in as earnest a way as the other threads were titled. I saw it as him being intentionally laconic and perhaps a little tongue in cheek.

I don't see how this thread is spam or trolling, any more than starting new political threads would be, when a new thread is created based on a new news item about a political party or a politician. They may lead to what essentially boils down to the same type of discussion, but generally, the subject is introduced in a new context in the first post. In this case, A_Wanderer cited a new study, and attempted to discuss the subject in the context of the study.
Had he not said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
Nobody bothers to read agreeable threads.
I'd think Axver was overreacting a bit with his "borderline trolling" remark. But damn, the thread title + the above quote comes off as textbook trolling. Maybe he was trying to be ironic after all, but he's the only one who can answer that.
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