The West Killed God

[SkeeK]

No, this isn't a troll or anything, it's the topic of a seminar I'm doing for History class. Basically I just want to offer this up for discussion.. do you think it's true? I know this could get rowdy so please keep it polite and such.

What this is talking about is the fact that less people now believe in god, especially the christian god, than did before, and also that the church has much less power than it once did. Of course it's hard to define 'the west' but i think of it as modernization: the rise of rationality, industrialization, capitalism, individualism, and deruralization (if that's a word. etc)

So do you agree that religion is less important to society than it was 20, 100, 200, or 500 years ago? Why might this be? etc. etc.

And if you know of any films or anything that would be really good to show, or anything like that, then feel free to suggest some.

 

[STING2]

Actually,

With over 95% of the planet still believing in God today, this idea that there has been some major shift from a hundred years ago is a bit flawed. Church attendance may be way down in the United Kingdom(and other places in Europe), but thats a small part of the world. Today nearly half of Africa is now Christian. Less than 10% was a hundred years ago. In the places where the population is growing on the planet, christianity and religion are alive and well. Church attendance is going up in the USA, not down.

An interesting thing is that in Europe, where religion has declined in several countries, the population is shrinking so much, that in a couple of decades, there will be more retired people than actual working people.

Less people in Europe have childern these days and there for do not have families. They may be a little less philosophical or intellectual about the whole thing because of that fact. Their focus is more self-centered perhaps. Thats a big maybe.

 

[deep]

Actually,

With over 95% of the planet still believing in God today, this idea that there has been some major shift from a hundred years ago is a bit flawed. Church attendance may be way down in the United Kingdom(and other places in Europe), but thats a small part of the world. Today nearly half of Africa is now Christian. Less than 10% was a hundred years ago. In the places where the population is growing on the planet, christianity and religion are alive and well. Church attendance is going up in the USA, not down.

An interesting thing is that in Europe, where religion has declined in several countries, the population is shrinking so much, that in a couple of decades, there will be more retired people than actual working people.

Less people in Europe have childern these days and there for do not have families. They may be a little less philosophical or intellectual about the whole thing because of that fact. Their focus is more self-centered perhaps. Thats a big maybe.

Sting,

You throw out a lot of numbers here.

95% How was this arrived at?

 

[Zoomerang96]

Actually,

With over 95% of the planet still believing in God today, this idea that there has been some major shift from a hundred years ago is a bit flawed. Church attendance may be way down in the United Kingdom(and other places in Europe), but thats a small part of the world. Today nearly half of Africa is now Christian. Less than 10% was a hundred years ago. In the places where the population is growing on the planet, christianity and religion are alive and well. Church attendance is going up in the USA, not down.

An interesting thing is that in Europe, where religion has declined in several countries, the population is shrinking so much, that in a couple of decades, there will be more retired people than actual working people.

Less people in Europe have childern these days and there for do not have families. They may be a little less philosophical or intellectual about the whole thing because of that fact. Their focus is more self-centered perhaps. Thats a big maybe.

you know, i honestly think you could have made this all up.

95% percent of the world believes in God, eh. right. and which source has said this? and how would they know? did they poll everyone on earth? even half of us? even a quarter? even an /8th? a 16th? you get the idea.

before you make such enormous claims, please cite some sort of reference.

 

[RavenStar]

I think there are a few reasons less people believe in god today than back then.
1. It is now less of a big deal to NOT believe in god. Just like homosexuals, it is more accepted to have a disbelief in god then say 500 years ago.
2. Science. More people prefer to believe in science because it seems to be the one thing that mostly everyone agrees on. So for some reason people choose to believe in science than religion. Whilst I think science is just like religion. I dont believe scientists anymore than I believe the pope.

And not to forget that religion plays less of a part in schools today than even 50 years ago. And since we are raised in school, we get taught science more than religion. This is if the child isnt being raised in an overly religious family.

 

[STING2]

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't have the exact source. It is in fact not one single source, but multiple sources I have seen over the past 15 years from scientific polling data done at various times. Its widely accepted fact regardless of culture, belief or political view point, from what I have briefly read or seen over the past 15 years.

No scientific poll polls every single person. I don't know if you ever took statistics at University or not, but there is a, number depending on the population being study, that is considered to be a representitive sample of that population. Thats how scientific polling and indeed most polling is done.

Cow,

It looks like for some reason you want to believe I made this up and for some reason hope that this polling data is totally a fraud. But thats really a baseless assumption on my part just as your assumption of me making this up is as well. I try to afford everyone here a certain level of respect(I'm not perfect though and make mistakes) and would hope you would do the same.

When it comes to statistics and scientific polling data, there is no such thing as an "enormous claim". I'm sorry I don't have the actual source its just something I've known because of study after study thats been done and printed in Magazines, News Papers, and TV news programs over the years. I'm sorry I don't have a(ready to go) source for every single piece of knowledge I know, for a lot of things I do, but not everything. Do you know anyone that does? I've never seen anything that would contradict that data unless you took a single poll of just Finland or Eastern Germany and extrapolated that over the entire planet. That would be an example of an UN-scientfic poll.

 

[diamond]

Sting got the number from me you jackases..

thank u
db3

 

[deep]

Science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Many scientists do believe in religion.

They just don't base their science on religion.



Science has no problem abandoning incorrect beliefs and will rewrite science books.

Science is not perfect, it is probably the best system for the search for knowledge.

 

[RavenStar]

thats one thing I like about science, it admits when its wrong.

 

[diamond]

..if anybody wants to do any rewriting they need to check w me first..bitchfaces..

thank u.
bruno

 

[STING2]

"thats one thing I like about science, it admits when its wrong."

So has the Church in the past.

 

[deep]

"thats one thing I like about science, it admits when its wrong."

So has the Church in the past.

Science has no problem abandoning incorrect beliefs and will rewrite science books.

They have problem abandoning incorrect beliefs

It took them 400? years to pardon Galileo.

I don't remember them rewriting their book.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

No scientific poll polls every single person. I don't know if you ever took statistics at University or not, but there is a, number depending on the population being study, that is considered to be a representitive sample of that population. Thats how scientific polling and indeed most polling is done.

Right, but it's an awful lot harder to get a representative sample of the entire planet. And also, whether a sample is representative or not depends on more than simply the size of the sample - for example you might decide that 1000 people can be a representative sample of the population of a state, but if every one of those people is a man then your sample is not representative of the population at all.

Anyway, this wasn't a discussion of sampling methods so I'll just take my i-hate-statistics-self elsewhere

 

[Kieran McConville]

I actually detest the idea that science and religion need be contradictory. Or perhaps more accurately, science and GOD.

Science - leaving aside the politics of it, the vested interests and so forth - is no more than a quest for knowledge using logic. So the evidence suggests that the Bible isn't an 'historical' document per se. Big bloody deal. Maybe it's only cause I come from a Catholic background but I've never really seen the Bible as something to be taken literally, though of course towards the most recent parts in the New Testament it does connect somewhat with actual history.

Anyway, I guess my point is that the onus really is on the rationalists to disprove God, not the other way around. And well spotted, some scientists do indeed believe in God. It's hardly a revolutionary idea.

On the broader question of this thread, maybe religion is declining in parts of the 'west'. In the institutional sense I'd be tempted to say 'about bloody time'. It's a tricky question though, cause 'religion' is one particular thing. It's not the be-all and end-all. I'd even venture to suggest that the connection between active attendance at a church, and 'belief' in a more general sense, is tenuous at best. I haven't set foot in a church in years, bar Christmas and Easter. Does that make me a bad Catholic, well yes most likely it does. But I continue to 'believe'.

Of course there are many paths to God. I also believe that. So if this thread is just talking about Christianity then maybe it's missing the point.

 

[SkeeK]

This thread is talking about any and all things relating to the subject. And I'm not saying that 'the west killed god' that's just what the seminar is called. This is on a broad scale, too. I think most people would agree that there are more athiests and agnostics now than there were in 1700, but that's also rather hard to prove.

The fact that the power of the organized catholic church has decreased is pretty obvious. That doesn't at all mean God is dead. But it is an important thing to think about nonetheless.

These days people are much freeer to think for themselves than in the past, which means a lot of people come up with their own definitions of God and their own beliefs about the supernatural and organized religion has a much smaller place in life. There are statistics, though, that show people who attend church are generally happier and more devoted to their families.. which is interesting albeit possibly unrelated to anything else i've been talking about

 

[STING2]

"These days people are much freeer to think for themselves than in the past, which means a lot of people come up with their own definitions of God and their own beliefs about the supernatural and organized religion has a much smaller place in life"

This is actually not necessarily so. People have always generally freely formed their own thoughts about religion and others. How else would you explain Catholics in Ireland combining their faith with those of Pagan beliefs centuries ago. Ever see the Celtic Cross. The circle and the cross symbolize the unity of the Irish Christian and Pagan communities. Certainly not with the approval of Rome.

Do we really know what a French Fur trapper trading in the midwest of the current USA really thought back in the late 1600s.

In contrast, many people out there feel that the TV and mainstream media has programmed todays society.

Has the power of the organized church really decreased when half of the people on the continent of Africa are now christians?

Church attendence today is actually higher than it was in the 1960s in the USA.

What I think we do have in the USA and Europe are young people in their 20s and 30s who are putting off getting married and starting a family. Single people in their 20s have the lowest rate of Church attendance. But once marriage and family happen, church attendance goes up.

 

[nbcrusader]

"The West killed God"?

Better title - "Satan makes headway as more people grow indifferent".

To the original question, I tend to see "Religion" as more of a cultural measure, whereas "Faith" is the personal relationship with God.

 

[SkeeK]

STING2.. one minor point, if you check out Christian Leadership World they have stats concerning % of population which are Christian divided by continent. It indicates that in 1995 33% of Africans were christian (not half). Also they project no rises and several decreases in the % of christians.

It also reports that 28% of humans are Christian

 

[SkeeK]

"People have always generally freely formed their own thoughts about religion and others"

I would disagree with that. I mean look at feudal society, it was very rigidly structured. Peasants lived out there lives in one place, most never moving more than a few miles their entire lives.. the world they knew was what they were told, and what they were told was about the catholic god, and they all just took it as truth... and why wouldn't they? much the same way we now take scientific facts as truth. One could argue that because of advancements in communication and therefore a much wider, if less specific, knowledge base that most people have (there is much more knowledge thanks to science that is possible to know), that people today are generally better informed to make decisions about anything. People may be 'brainwashed' by the media, but the voice of the media is less strict than that of the feudal lords.

Another interesting point is that there are statistics (which may mean nothing to you if you don't believe in statistics) that show that in 1914, 58% of scientists expressed doubt in the existence of god and 74% of 'greater scientists' expressed doubt. In 1998, all members of the National Academy of Sciences were surveyed and only 7% said they believed in God. Which is maybe a little indicator that many people don't think that religion and science can 'both be right'.

I'm not really trying to argue with anyone or take sides, just presenting some facts for general amusement

 

[DebbieSG]

in a word, greed

it diverts us from moral questions, we think we can horde up everything we need and not have to rely on a divine benefactor

you either serve God or mammon...

humanists still have faith, they put it in man-made things, such as energy corporations they work for; scientists still look for the absolute answer...it's all just putting idols in front of God, not killing him

right now two movies come to mind, Contact which gets into the Science reconciled with religion issue, and Jesus of Montreal, which may in some way address the subject

sounds like it will be an interesting class!

 

[Zoomerang96]

debbie, you are a good poster, and i always enjoy reading what you have to say.

 

[STING2]

My Grandfather was a Scientist. One of the greatest Scientist that the state of Mississippi ever had. He got his PHD at MIT. He was also Baptist Minister. He and his colleages all believed in God. My Aunt and Uncle in Law are both Scientist as well and believe in God. Generally, most scientist, especially Astronomers believe in God.

So you have a statistic from 1995 which shows 33% of Africans are christians. Welcome to January 2003 and CNN which recently just reported that the number of Christians in Africa is around 50%!

Guess what, the entire planet did not live in a feudal society like Europe did at one point. If people just believed in the Catholic God, you would not have a Protestant movement or the Church of England or the Irish who never really adopted everything from that they were supposed to.

I'd say the power of the media is vastly stonger than the Fuedal Lords of the middle ages. I mean how many feudal Lords could say they reached as many people as U2. How many Feudal Lords went to Africa, South America, Australia, Asia, North America. Media today goes to all these places. If anything today we experience assimiliation and less cultural diversity than we did hundreds of years ago. How many people still speak Latin or Irish?

People may be better informed today to make lots of choices about various things(but not all due to science) and they still with this information generally believe in God.

Church attendance is actually higher today in many area's throughtout the world thanks to technology. Often the nearest church was to far away in many agricultural societies for them to attend or attend on a regular basis.

 

[Anoosh Vs. God]

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and it is steadily catching up to the stagnant numbers of Christians.

Considering the violent temperment of early Christian leaders, scientists faired quite well under their rule. Not one scientist was ever executed, and many of our legendary scientists were men of the cloth.

The ability of feudal lords to destroy and govern lives (physically, financially, emotionaly) was certainly stronger than our people pleasing media.

 

[bonoman]

My Grandfather was a Scientist. One of the greatest Scientist that the state of Mississippi ever had. He got his PHD at MIT. He was also Baptist Minister. He and his colleages all believed in God. My Aunt and Uncle in Law are both Scientist as well and believe in God. Generally, most scientist, especially Astronomers believe in God.

So you have a statistic from 1995 which shows 33% of Africans are christians. Welcome to January 2003 and CNN which recently just reported that the number of Christians in Africa is around 50%!

Guess what, the entire planet did not live in a feudal society like Europe did at one point. If people just believed in the Catholic God, you would not have a Protestant movement or the Church of England or the Irish who never really adopted everything from that they were supposed to.

I'd say the power of the media is vastly stonger than the Fuedal Lords of the middle ages. I mean how many feudal Lords could say they reached as many people as U2. How many Feudal Lords went to Africa, South America, Australia, Asia, North America. Media today goes to all these places. If anything today we experience assimiliation and less cultural diversity than we did hundreds of years ago. How many people still speak Latin or Irish?

People may be better informed today to make lots of choices about various things(but not all due to science) and they still with this information generally believe in God.

Church attendance is actually higher today in many area's throughtout the world thanks to technology. Often the nearest church was to far away in many agricultural societies for them to attend or attend on a regular basis.

Remeber he's just presenting facts...take it easy man!

Just because your GF and some in-laws were scientists and religuos doesnt really prove anything.

Oh and i would like to know what you meant by:

or the Irish who never really adopted everything from that they were supposed to.

what were they supposed to adopt? Like were they supposed to become prodestant? Please Clarify. Thanks

Skeek you should really post here more often you are very well spoken and know your shit!!!

 

[diamond]

in a word, greed


you either serve God or mammon...

!

some of us serve bear
and
only
bear

 

[anitram]

So you have a statistic from 1995 which shows 33% of Africans are christians. Welcome to January 2003 and CNN which recently just reported that the number of Christians in Africa is around 50%!

Something's funny with this data, because I don't believe both of these statistics can be true. There is no way that there would have been such a significant conversion percentage, or such a significant Christian birth boom in 8 years. It is just impossible. So either it was more than 33%, or it is less than 50% right now (which is my guess).

 

[Zoomerang96]

some of us serve bear
and
only
bear

odd.

 

[diamond]

shut up, thank u.
db3

 

[DebbieSG]

Something's funny with this data, because I don't believe both of these statistics can be true. There is no way that there would have been such a significant conversion percentage, or such a significant Christian birth boom in 8 years. It is just impossible. So either it was more than 33%, or it is less than 50% right now (which is my guess).

you know what i'm thinking? the other way around, lots of deaths...6,500 die everyday of AIDS


thanks Co'S! and hush, Diamond

 

[STING2]

Bonoman,

Sure, the fact that I have 3 Scientist in my family does not mean anything?!?!? The fact that Skeek decides to site a poll of the NAS but neglects to tell us it was only their Biological and Physical Science department representing less than a 25% of the NAS and that of that only half of those people who got the survey even responded to it, and this is supposed to be a representive sample of what all Scientist on the planet believe. Facts?! More like a distortion of the facts which anyone who has studied statistics will know.

By the way, I'd like to inform you than an Aunt is not and in-law.

I guess you never studied Irish history in any sort of depth. I was refering to the practices of the Catholic Church and that in Ireland, things were very different from the way they were in Rome. Pagans and Catholics often worshiped together and were accepted into the Catholic community with their beliefs intact. The Celtic Cross is a symbolism of the unity between the Pagan community and Catholics in Ireland. This of course would not be proper to have done back in Rome. The Irish have always bucked the trend and tradition when it comes to everything to do with the Catholic Church. Irish immigrants to the USA freely married people of other faiths and so on, despite the fact that this was rare if non-existent in other places. It just goes to show that this whole idea that people did not have freedom of thought back then is rubbish.