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Old 01-05-2003, 09:40 PM   #16
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"These days people are much freeer to think for themselves than in the past, which means a lot of people come up with their own definitions of God and their own beliefs about the supernatural and organized religion has a much smaller place in life"

This is actually not necessarily so. People have always generally freely formed their own thoughts about religion and others. How else would you explain Catholics in Ireland combining their faith with those of Pagan beliefs centuries ago. Ever see the Celtic Cross. The circle and the cross symbolize the unity of the Irish Christian and Pagan communities. Certainly not with the approval of Rome.

Do we really know what a French Fur trapper trading in the midwest of the current USA really thought back in the late 1600s.

In contrast, many people out there feel that the TV and mainstream media has programmed todays society.

Has the power of the organized church really decreased when half of the people on the continent of Africa are now christians?

Church attendence today is actually higher than it was in the 1960s in the USA.

What I think we do have in the USA and Europe are young people in their 20s and 30s who are putting off getting married and starting a family. Single people in their 20s have the lowest rate of Church attendance. But once marriage and family happen, church attendance goes up.
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Old 01-05-2003, 10:18 PM   #17
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"The West killed God"?

Better title - "Satan makes headway as more people grow indifferent".

To the original question, I tend to see "Religion" as more of a cultural measure, whereas "Faith" is the personal relationship with God.
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Old 01-05-2003, 11:27 PM   #18
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STING2.. one minor point, if you check out Christian Leadership World they have stats concerning % of population which are Christian divided by continent. It indicates that in 1995 33% of Africans were christian (not half). Also they project no rises and several decreases in the % of christians.

It also reports that 28% of humans are Christian
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Old 01-05-2003, 11:42 PM   #19
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"People have always generally freely formed their own thoughts about religion and others"

I would disagree with that. I mean look at feudal society, it was very rigidly structured. Peasants lived out there lives in one place, most never moving more than a few miles their entire lives.. the world they knew was what they were told, and what they were told was about the catholic god, and they all just took it as truth... and why wouldn't they? much the same way we now take scientific facts as truth. One could argue that because of advancements in communication and therefore a much wider, if less specific, knowledge base that most people have (there is much more knowledge thanks to science that is possible to know), that people today are generally better informed to make decisions about anything. People may be 'brainwashed' by the media, but the voice of the media is less strict than that of the feudal lords.

Another interesting point is that there are statistics (which may mean nothing to you if you don't believe in statistics) that show that in 1914, 58% of scientists expressed doubt in the existence of god and 74% of 'greater scientists' expressed doubt. In 1998, all members of the National Academy of Sciences were surveyed and only 7% said they believed in God. Which is maybe a little indicator that many people don't think that religion and science can 'both be right'.

I'm not really trying to argue with anyone or take sides, just presenting some facts for general amusement
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Old 01-05-2003, 11:54 PM   #20
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in a word, greed

it diverts us from moral questions, we think we can horde up everything we need and not have to rely on a divine benefactor

you either serve God or mammon...

humanists still have faith, they put it in man-made things, such as energy corporations they work for; scientists still look for the absolute answer...it's all just putting idols in front of God, not killing him

right now two movies come to mind, Contact which gets into the Science reconciled with religion issue, and Jesus of Montreal, which may in some way address the subject

sounds like it will be an interesting class!
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Old 01-06-2003, 12:41 AM   #21
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debbie, you are a good poster, and i always enjoy reading what you have to say.
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Old 01-06-2003, 01:03 AM   #22
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My Grandfather was a Scientist. One of the greatest Scientist that the state of Mississippi ever had. He got his PHD at MIT. He was also Baptist Minister. He and his colleages all believed in God. My Aunt and Uncle in Law are both Scientist as well and believe in God. Generally, most scientist, especially Astronomers believe in God.

So you have a statistic from 1995 which shows 33% of Africans are christians. Welcome to January 2003 and CNN which recently just reported that the number of Christians in Africa is around 50%!

Guess what, the entire planet did not live in a feudal society like Europe did at one point. If people just believed in the Catholic God, you would not have a Protestant movement or the Church of England or the Irish who never really adopted everything from that they were supposed to.

I'd say the power of the media is vastly stonger than the Fuedal Lords of the middle ages. I mean how many feudal Lords could say they reached as many people as U2. How many Feudal Lords went to Africa, South America, Australia, Asia, North America. Media today goes to all these places. If anything today we experience assimiliation and less cultural diversity than we did hundreds of years ago. How many people still speak Latin or Irish?

People may be better informed today to make lots of choices about various things(but not all due to science) and they still with this information generally believe in God.

Church attendance is actually higher today in many area's throughtout the world thanks to technology. Often the nearest church was to far away in many agricultural societies for them to attend or attend on a regular basis.
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Old 01-06-2003, 01:27 AM   #23
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Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and it is steadily catching up to the stagnant numbers of Christians.

Considering the violent temperment of early Christian leaders, scientists faired quite well under their rule. Not one scientist was ever executed, and many of our legendary scientists were men of the cloth.

The ability of feudal lords to destroy and govern lives (physically, financially, emotionaly) was certainly stronger than our people pleasing media.
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Old 01-06-2003, 03:12 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
My Grandfather was a Scientist. One of the greatest Scientist that the state of Mississippi ever had. He got his PHD at MIT. He was also Baptist Minister. He and his colleages all believed in God. My Aunt and Uncle in Law are both Scientist as well and believe in God. Generally, most scientist, especially Astronomers believe in God.

So you have a statistic from 1995 which shows 33% of Africans are christians. Welcome to January 2003 and CNN which recently just reported that the number of Christians in Africa is around 50%!

Guess what, the entire planet did not live in a feudal society like Europe did at one point. If people just believed in the Catholic God, you would not have a Protestant movement or the Church of England or the Irish who never really adopted everything from that they were supposed to.

I'd say the power of the media is vastly stonger than the Fuedal Lords of the middle ages. I mean how many feudal Lords could say they reached as many people as U2. How many Feudal Lords went to Africa, South America, Australia, Asia, North America. Media today goes to all these places. If anything today we experience assimiliation and less cultural diversity than we did hundreds of years ago. How many people still speak Latin or Irish?

People may be better informed today to make lots of choices about various things(but not all due to science) and they still with this information generally believe in God.

Church attendance is actually higher today in many area's throughtout the world thanks to technology. Often the nearest church was to far away in many agricultural societies for them to attend or attend on a regular basis.

Remeber he's just presenting facts...take it easy man!

Just because your GF and some in-laws were scientists and religuos doesnt really prove anything.

Oh and i would like to know what you meant by:

or the Irish who never really adopted everything from that they were supposed to.

what were they supposed to adopt? Like were they supposed to become prodestant? Please Clarify. Thanks

Skeek you should really post here more often you are very well spoken and know your shit!!!
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Old 01-06-2003, 04:49 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by DebbieSG
in a word, greed


you either serve God or mammon...

!
some of us serve bear
and
only
bear
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Old 01-06-2003, 09:50 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
So you have a statistic from 1995 which shows 33% of Africans are christians. Welcome to January 2003 and CNN which recently just reported that the number of Christians in Africa is around 50%!
Something's funny with this data, because I don't believe both of these statistics can be true. There is no way that there would have been such a significant conversion percentage, or such a significant Christian birth boom in 8 years. It is just impossible. So either it was more than 33%, or it is less than 50% right now (which is my guess).
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Old 01-06-2003, 01:28 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

some of us serve bear
and
only
bear
odd.
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Old 01-06-2003, 02:12 PM   #28
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shut up, thank u.
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Old 01-06-2003, 02:55 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


Something's funny with this data, because I don't believe both of these statistics can be true. There is no way that there would have been such a significant conversion percentage, or such a significant Christian birth boom in 8 years. It is just impossible. So either it was more than 33%, or it is less than 50% right now (which is my guess).
you know what i'm thinking? the other way around, lots of deaths...6,500 die everyday of AIDS


thanks Co'S! and hush, Diamond
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Old 01-06-2003, 02:59 PM   #30
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Bonoman,

Sure, the fact that I have 3 Scientist in my family does not mean anything?!?!? The fact that Skeek decides to site a poll of the NAS but neglects to tell us it was only their Biological and Physical Science department representing less than a 25% of the NAS and that of that only half of those people who got the survey even responded to it, and this is supposed to be a representive sample of what all Scientist on the planet believe. Facts?! More like a distortion of the facts which anyone who has studied statistics will know.

By the way, I'd like to inform you than an Aunt is not and in-law.

I guess you never studied Irish history in any sort of depth. I was refering to the practices of the Catholic Church and that in Ireland, things were very different from the way they were in Rome. Pagans and Catholics often worshiped together and were accepted into the Catholic community with their beliefs intact. The Celtic Cross is a symbolism of the unity between the Pagan community and Catholics in Ireland. This of course would not be proper to have done back in Rome. The Irish have always bucked the trend and tradition when it comes to everything to do with the Catholic Church. Irish immigrants to the USA freely married people of other faiths and so on, despite the fact that this was rare if non-existent in other places. It just goes to show that this whole idea that people did not have freedom of thought back then is rubbish.
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