"The Web's Number 1 Christian Porn Site"?!

[nathan1977]

i think God sets us up to sin.

That's interesting. That says a lot about how you see both your own human condition, and God. (Forgive me if I'm way off.) It seems you think that we were created to fail, to sin, to live in the consequences of selfish decisions that alienate us both from others and God (the immediate effects of Adam and Eve's decision in Genesis 3). It seems pretty clear though that God actually created us to experience all good things -- it's us who chose to do the one thing we were asked not to do. If you look at Genesis, Adam and Eve have the world literally at their fingertips -- instead, they choose to focus on the one tree God warns them about. And from that, brokenness comes.

I don't think you can say that God sets us up to sin, at least from scripture. What you can say is that He gives us the ability to choose to do right, or choose to do wrong. And when I use "right" and "wrong," I mean it in two ways -- one a moral judgment, the other as a healthy way of life. Most of the friends I have -- the majority of whom aren't Christians -- WANT to do the right thing. They don't want to steal each other's boyfriends/girlfriends. They don't want to lie to get ahead at work. They don't want to cheat their way through school. It's almost like they can't help themselves. It's human nature -- a nature that became that way after we made our first choices as human beings to go our own way, rather than follow the directions of a Loving Father Who only wanted the best for us...

why don't you like songs about sex? i find "so cruel" and "mysterious ways" to be very sexual, but in a very mature, almost intellectual way. there's no "i'm gonna fuck you like an animal" lines on it ... but there are loads of lines that might come from the crotch, but they've gone through the head.

For me, "AB" is a powerful album of someone trapped -- with a head of heaven, but fingers in the mire. I think that without God that's an accurate representation of humanity; trying to do the right thing, trying to live a good life, trying to make good decisions, but frustrated at every turn by our own ability to miss the sun for the moon. There's no glorification of sex in that album; rather, it seems to be much more focused on the aftereffects of sex in the back of a Chevrolet, rather than the act itself. (Which fits with how Bono has repeatedly talked about how he likes to explore sexuality as a songwriter.)

The biggest effect of sexual sin -- in any context, be it hetero- or homo- -- is that it robs us of innocence, awe and wonder. It steals the most sacred act two human beings can share and reduces it to the basest of experiences. Sex becomes a weapon -- a tool -- a device for manipulation. The end result of relationships (and these days, the start). It brings people together in a powerful way, but it also tears at the soul when they leave each other. I think in our hyper-sexualized culture, where porn oozes through every pore, where Jenna Jameson is now a cultural icon and Paris Hilton has become a household name due primarily to her infamous video, I think we are doing a pretty good job of reducing sex to its basest components, and that to me may be the greatest loss of all...

 

[Irvine511]

I just don't like `em. But I don't see "mysterious ways" as sexual at all.

i think MW is about God and sex. and has some of my favorite Bono lyrics:

"one day you will look
back and you'll see
where you were held
how by this love
while you could stand there
and not move on this moment
follow this feeling"

one of the lines i love from the Flanagan book is when Bono talks about things that are supposed to be opposites -- irony and sincerity, plastic and soul, and, especially, God and sex -- might actually be opposite sides of the same coin. that through the exploration of one, we might find the other.

 

[Irvine511]

(I'm not getting any work done today, either. So I'll briefly respond with what I can. Again, I hate message boards.)

One of the things about being in ministry that breaks my heart is the inability of people to accept grace. Through Jesus, God has poured out such immeasurable and astounding love, and all throughout my church I see people who simply can't understand that. I feel like I'm watching a starving man stumble around for nourishment, when he could be fed beyond his wildest dreams if he would just open his eyes to the feast in front of him. It's maddening and frustrating. Then I remember how much I refuse grace in my own life, and I realize we're all messed up in our own ways.

Christianity is not about rules and religion. It's such a simple idea that is so hard to understand. It's about a relationship with the God who loves you more than you could ever comprehend. A God who's willing to look past your mistakes and see the beauty inside. And so many Christians I know are running around in shackles, scared that they are going to break the rules and God isn't going to like them anymore. God loves you. He has chosen to love you. And that love is not based on who you are, but who He is. That's what grace is all about.

Where's sin in all of this? Making a muck of things, really. Sin pulls us away from God, damaging that relationship and hindering us from the love He so desperately wants to give us. God hates to see how sin hurts us, scars us, and stops us from being what He intended. But sin isn't going to change the way God feels about us. He'll love us, sin great or small. He'll accept us, no matter what we've done or will do in the future.

That's the difference Jesus makes. What we do with Him and who He is makes us a Christian, and bridges that gap between us and God.

Holy crap. Sorry about that. Don't mean to preach, just can't help it sometimes. I guess you hit a nerve.

if you were my minister, i'd consider going to church.

seriously.

that all makes so much emotional, and intellectual sense to me.

 

[pax]

The biggest effect of sexual sin -- in any context, be it hetero- or homo- -- is that it robs us of innocence, awe and wonder. It steals the most sacred act two human beings can share and reduces it to the basest of experiences. Sex becomes a weapon -- a tool -- a device for manipulation. The end result of relationships (and these days, the start). It brings people together in a powerful way, but it also tears at the soul when they leave each other. I think in our hyper-sexualized culture, where porn oozes through every pore, where Jenna Jameson is now a cultural icon and Paris Hilton has become a household name due primarily to her infamous video, I think we are doing a pretty good job of reducing sex to its basest components, and that to me may be the greatest loss of all...

Whoa. Right on.

 

[Irvine511]

That's interesting. That says a lot about how you see both your own human condition, and God. (Forgive me if I'm way off.) It seems you think that we were created to fail, to sin, to live in the consequences of selfish decisions that alienate us both from others and God (the immediate effects of Adam and Eve's decision in Genesis 3). It seems pretty clear though that God actually created us to experience all good things -- it's us who chose to do the one thing we were asked not to do. If you look at Genesis, Adam and Eve have the world literally at their fingertips -- instead, they choose to focus on the one tree God warns them about. And from that, brokenness comes.

I don't think you can say that God sets us up to sin, at least from scripture. What you can say is that He gives us the ability to choose to do right, or choose to do wrong. And when I use "right" and "wrong," I mean it in two ways -- one a moral judgment, the other as a healthy way of life. Most of the friends I have -- the majority of whom aren't Christians -- WANT to do the right thing. They don't want to steal each other's boyfriends/girlfriends. They don't want to lie to get ahead at work. They don't want to cheat their way through school. It's almost like they can't help themselves. It's human nature -- a nature that became that way after we made our first choices as human beings to go our own way, rather than follow the directions of a Loving Father Who only wanted the best for us...



For me, "AB" is a powerful album of someone trapped -- with a head of heaven, but fingers in the mire. I think that without God that's an accurate representation of humanity; trying to do the right thing, trying to live a good life, trying to make good decisions, but frustrated at every turn by our own ability to miss the sun for the moon. There's no glorification of sex in that album; rather, it seems to be much more focused on the aftereffects of sex in the back of a Chevrolet, rather than the act itself. (Which fits with how Bono has repeatedly talked about how he likes to explore sexuality as a songwriter.)

The biggest effect of sexual sin -- in any context, be it hetero- or homo- -- is that it robs us of innocence, awe and wonder. It steals the most sacred act two human beings can share and reduces it to the basest of experiences. Sex becomes a weapon -- a tool -- a device for manipulation. The end result of relationships (and these days, the start). It brings people together in a powerful way, but it also tears at the soul when they leave each other. I think in our hyper-sexualized culture, where porn oozes through every pore, where Jenna Jameson is now a cultural icon and Paris Hilton has become a household name due primarily to her infamous video, I think we are doing a pretty good job of reducing sex to its basest components, and that to me may be the greatest loss of all...

very interesting post, but i just got an assignment and can't write.

only thing i will say about the sexual sin part: yes, sex is reduced and degraded by our culture. but i think there is something to be said for straying, sexually, for going on sexual adventures and misadventures. if you've never had bad sex, if you've never felt the emptiness in the morning, if you've never had regret, if it's never been bad, then just how will you know when it is at it's best? of course you try to minimize bad experiences (as i do, as i've gotten older and am less impulsive), but they inevitably happen, but those bad experiences make me long for sex within the context of a loving relationship (which has only happened once for me). by straying a bit out of the light, i can now see how bright that light is, and it makes me want to return. because i've had one night stands, because i've made some bad decisions, i now know that what i want is the "sacred act" you wrote about.

but i wouldn't have believed it, unless i had strayed.

and, also, if we're going by biblical definitions (as some would argue), then all the sex i've had since my junior year of college has been sinful.

 

[stammer476]

if you were my minister, i'd consider going to church.

seriously.

that all makes so much emotional, and intellectual sense to me.

I wish I was. Next time you're in the Detroit area . . .

It's a philosophy, that mini-sermon. And it does have nuts-and-bolts consequences that follow. Unfortunately, that's often times what keeps people from God. I pray that won't be the case in your life.

 

[80sU2isBest]

i think MW is about God and sex. and has some of my favorite Bono lyrics:

"one day you will look
back and you'll see
where you were held
how by this love
while you could stand there
and not move on this moment
follow this feeling"

one of the lines i love from the Flanagan book is when Bono talks about things that are supposed to be opposites -- irony and sincerity, plastic and soul, and, especially, God and sex -- might actually be opposite sides of the same coin. that through the exploration of one, we might find the other.

Personally, I don't see any lines in Mysterious Ways that strike me as being about sex.

While I respect your opinion and Bono's, I don't agree that God can be found through the exploration of sex, or vice-versa.

 

[Irvine511]

Personally, I don't see any lines in Mysterious Ways that strike me as being about sex.

While I respect your opinion and Bono's, I don't agree that God can be found through the exploration of sex, or vice-versa.

what about the belly dancer?

and it's got Adam's best bass line ever -- Bono says rhythm is the sex of music.

 

[pax]

Stammer, if you don't mind my asking, what kind of minister are you? I want to find a church with a minister like you near where I live.

 

[stammer476]

Stammer, if you don't mind my asking, what kind of minister are you? I want to find a church with a minister like you near where I live.

I'm a minister at a non-denominational Christian church. To make a long story short, our churches decided that all of this denominational stuff was senseless and wanted to go back to how the original church was organized in its infancy. Basically, we're a relationship of independent churches who do their best to "simplify" Christianity without all of its religious hindrances. (Edited to add: U2democrat's church and my church share this hertiage, though we have some doctrinal differences.)

A motto we like is, "In the essentials, unity. In the non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love." Basically stating that, if an issue is not dependant on your eternal salvation, learn to agree to disagree. But no matter what, love each other.

We're techincally called the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ of the Restoration Movement, but 99% of our church members wouldn't have a clue about that.

And while I'm humbled at your comments, both you Pax and Irvine, what I've said has nothing to do with a church or a minister. This is the message of Christ. If you can find that in a church, it doesn't matter what their denomination or who their minister is.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

Personally, I don't see any lines in Mysterious Ways that strike me as being about sex.

While I respect your opinion and Bono's, I don't agree that God can be found through the exploration of sex, or vice-versa.

Even when I was 14 years old I felt that song was about God and sex.

 

[stammer476]

Irvine, I forgot to mention this earlier. I'd strongly recommend reading the book, "The Ragamuffin Gospel" by Brennan Manning. My absolute favorite book ever (Bible excluded, naturally). It really helped me understand so much of what I've said today. I don't like this phrase so I don't use it often, but it literally changed my life.

 

[80sU2isBest]

The song has always struck me as being about the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, I forgot to mention this earlier. I'd strongly recommend reading the book, "The Ragamuffin Gospel" by Brennan Manning. My absolute favorite book ever (Bible excluded, naturally). It really helped me understand so much of what I've said today. I don't like this phrase so I don't use it often, but it literally changed my life.

i just might check it out.

thanks.

 

[nathan1977]

Stammer's right. Excellent read.

 

[80sU2isBest]

A motto we like is, "In the essentials, unity. In the non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love." Basically stating that, if an issue is not dependant on your eternal salvation, learn to agree to disagree. But no matter what, love each other.

I have an honest question; Do you feel that in some issues, that complete adherance to that moto can be detrimental to a Christian's relationship with Christ? If one of the members in your church believes in a heretical doctrine, do you have the responsibility to help guide them toward the truth, even if the heresy doesn't have anything to do with salvation?

 

[stammer476]

If it doesn't have anything to do with salvation, I'm not sure I could say it's a heresy.

As far as other situations, the goal is unity and respect, and that's going to have to allow for some diversity. I don't agree with the doctrines of everyone in the my church. I don't even agree with everyone on our ministerial staff. But I guess I just believe in the end we have to say, "Hey, we're both still saved, so we'll have to agree to disagree."

Most of the time we take it on a case-by-case basis. And yes, I do try to correct those who I believe have come to wrong conclusions, but that's just because I'm right.

 

[Irvine511]

The song has always struck me as being about the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

i think it's about both.

the holy spirit is supposed to be feminine, right?

could not the most famous line -- "if you wanna kiss the sky/ better learn how to kneel" -- be Bono seeking to be both worshipful to God in a literal sense, as well as being worshipful to his wife in an oral sexual sense? is not performing oral sex on women something that many straight men have a problem with, that it can be seen as not masculine? could this be a form of submission that takes you to a higher place?

again, that whole God/sex thing ...

 

[stammer476]

I always took that line as a reference to prayer.

 

[Irvine511]

I always took that line as a reference to prayer.

can't it be both?!?!?!

that's what i find so exciting about the song. that sexual intercourse, the melding of two bodies, can be prayerful, it can be of god, by embracing human-ness at it's most base -- the flesh -- you can access the spiritual. when you are making love, you are literally MAKING LOVE.



this is why i LOVE achtung.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I always took that line as a reference to prayer.

I always took it as "if you want to be exalted by God, you must humble yourself".

 

[stammer476]

Ah, yes. Bono's the only guy I know who'd have the guts to intertwine sex and worship to God together. Quite a poet, he is.

But I'm more of a POP guy, myself. I've always loved the brutal honesty of it. I thought "Wake Up Dead Man" was heretical until I realized the disciples said the same thing to Jesus (Mark 4:35-51).

 

[Irvine511]

Ah, yes. Bono's the only guy I know who'd have the guts to intertwine sex and worship to God together. Quite a poet, he is.

he gets it from Prince ...

 

[sallycinnamon78]

i think it's about both.

the holy spirit is supposed to be feminine, right?

could not the most famous line -- "if you wanna kiss the sky/ better learn how to kneel" -- be Bono seeking to be both worshipful to God in a literal sense, as well as being worshipful to his wife in an oral sexual sense? is not performing oral sex on women something that many straight men have a problem with, that it can be seen as not masculine? could this be a form of submission that takes you to a higher place?

again, that whole God/sex thing ...

I agree.

 

[80sU2isBest]

If it doesn't have anything to do with salvation, I'm not sure I could say it's a heresy.

One example I can think of is that some modern Christian denominations, while giving lip service to "saved by grace", encourage self-legalism to "keep on God's good side". While that doesn't directly deal with salvation, I consider it heresy, and it has great potential to hurt a believer's relationship with Christ. As you know, Paul was none too kind to those of his time who were trying to introduce strict adherance to the Mosaic law into the church. In several of his letters, he focuses his contempt (yes, contempt) on them.

 

[stammer476]

In that example, I'd do my best to teach them otherwise. Most people will listen to a rational argument from Scripture about what we believe. But in extreme circumstances, there are certain types of disciplinary systems in place in the method of Matthew 18:15-17.

An example we've dealt with in the past is the issue of speaking in tongues. Some believe it is a part of the corporate worship, others don't. The final conclusion was: you're still a Christian whether or not you believe speaking in tongues should be part of corporate worship. So agree to disagree. Does that make sense?

 

[80sU2isBest]

In that example, I'd do my best to teach them otherwise. Most people will listen to a rational argument from Scripture about what we believe. But in extreme circumstances, there are certain types of disciplinary systems in place in the method of Matthew 18:15-17.

An example we've dealt with in the past is the issue of speaking in tongues. Some believe it is a part of the corporate worship, others don't. The final conclusion was: you're still a Christian whether or not you believe speaking in tongues should be part of corporate worship. So agree to disagree. Does that make sense?

Oh good, I understand now. It does make sense.

 

[Teta040]

Wan't there a story recently about a pastor in North Carolina or somewhere in the South who just decided to confess that there were sexual crimes being committed in his church by his congregation? He just up and told this to the police. Does anyone know what I'm talkng about? Maybe this is the chruch's site..I;d laugh if it weren;t so serious. That sotry is true.

 

[sallycinnamon78]

Wan't there a story recently about a pastor in North Carolina or somewhere in the South who just decided to confess that there were sexual crimes being committed in his church by his congregation? He just up and told this to the police. Does anyone know what I'm talkng about? Maybe this is the chruch's site..I;d laugh if it weren;t so serious. That sotry is true.

Really?? Wow! That puts an entirely different spin on things. I'll have a look at the site - if it's true I'm sure it will be there somewhere...

 

[sallycinnamon78]

WARNING: This may be distressing and triggering for survivors so please don't read if it's going to hurt you


Teta - is this the one you mean?
http://www.theneworleanschannel.com/news/4507699/detail.html

Neighbor Says He Heard Screaming Inside Church

POSTED: 10:52 am CDT May 19, 2005
UPDATED: 5:10 pm CDT May 19, 2005

NEW ORLEANS -- A fourth arrest involving sexual abuse charges connected to a Ponchatoula church was made Wednesday evening, and a neighbor is talking about what he has seen and heard over the years.

Allen Pierson
Allen Pierson
Allen Pierson, 46, was booked Wednesday on one count of aggravated rape. According to the arrest warrant, Pierson engaged in sex with a girl who was 9 or 10 years old at the time. The victim is now 13, investigators said.

Chris Labat
Chris Labat
Both Pierson and another suspect, Tangipahoa Deputy Chris Labat, 24, have listed the Hosanna Church compound as their home address at one time or another.

Louis Lamonica
Louis Lamonica
The other suspects are former Hosanna pastor Louis Lamonica, 45, and church member Austin Bernard, 36.

Three of the four men arrested have children of their own, but detectives refuse to say whether their children were victims.

Tim Norman has lived next door to the church for 15 years. He said over time, he has watched it become and stranger and stranger place.

"One time, I had to return something to (Lamonica)," Norman said. "I walked up to the door and heard his wife screaming. She was a Eucharistic minister, too, and I heard her say, 'I'm going to whip the sins right out of this guy.' She was screaming at the top of her lungs. Man, I turned right back around. I had goose pimples. I told my wife they're doing an exorcism. It was like 'Poltergeist' or something."
The allegations against Lamonica and Labat include charges that cats and dogs were used in their alleged crimes, investigators said.

"There were a bunch of animals down by the creek," Norman said. "They weren't cut up or anything, but they were all crippled up. One of them, a Jack Russell terrier, was just lying on the property. He died the next day of internal injuries."

The investigation is ongoing, and more arrests are expected, detectives said.

"Mr. Pierson was just another player in this, and we're trying to put the information together," said lead investigator Charles Fitz. "We don't know how many arrests will come. We've got teams doing interviews, and we're interviewing victims to determine what we do next."

Norman said he has lost good neighbors because of the church.

"My neighbors moved," he said. "They were scared of these people. They said, 'They're going kill you.' I said, 'Let them come.'"