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Old 03-22-2006, 11:44 PM   #31
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The issue is having differing levels of fines for different types of litter. Cigg butts tend to stay where tossed. McDonald's wrappers can get blown with the wind.

I disagree. I've lived where I live now for two years and no one here smokes and none of our friends smoke. We've got housemates with asthma and allergies so we don't allow it near our house, period. The people nearby don't smoke either, but they have parties and other people do. I've had several complaints from neighbors that say OUR cigg butts keep getting in their lawn and we have to go over there and pick up all the butts. Once a week when I do yard work and cleaning, I'm picking up cigg butts, even though there hasn't been a smoker living on our property for almsot ten years. I pick up larger blown trash like wrappers maybe once every few weeks, if we've had a wind advisory.

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And a cigg butt tossed on a street corner doesn't put a house at risk.
But a cigg butt tossed near a house or in the grass or in some dry trash does. I've seen a fire started by a careless person tossing a cigg butt. I can't think of a time I've experienced a dangerous incident because of a McD's wrapper.

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The attempt to quantify a level of fine is bad enough when you compare different crimes (litter vs. animal abuse).
I wasn't comparing the two, they're totally different. I was just saying that to me, there are much larger issues surrounding certain fines than the fines for littering.
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Old 03-23-2006, 03:24 AM   #32
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Originally posted by the iron horse


Enjoy your Brave New World
There isn't any liberty being squashed because there is a more harsh fine for legitimately endangering both property and human life than just creating a mess or a slight nuisance.

If you want to argue about 'Brave New World', then there are many better fights and arguments to make. Actually, a scary amount of them.

Back to the cig butts, we have had a slew of grassfires across the southwest and the plains that just mow down homes because of idiots who casually toss their cig butts out the car window. There has to be a protection built in for this, of some sort. If we are allowed to smoke, as I think we should be, then we should be punished for infringing on other peoples shit.

Isn't there a huge qualification between tossing a half eaten sandwich out the car window, which could be easily eaten by birds and harm next to nothing, and tossing a cig butt out the window, that before a large city fire squad can put it out because of dry conditions, it takes down dozens of homes, potentially wrecking dozens of lives?

Big difference, methinks.

It's like arguing that people shouldn't be fined more for going 50MPH over the speed limit (obviously increasing the danger to others) versus going 1MPH over the speed limit. This is one situation where the Govt. is actually rather consistent.

I think we should be picking the fights where it is inconsistent.
I can buy outrage on some smoking issues, even though I am a non-smoker because I do think legislation has gotten a bit ridiculous with taxes etc. and limitations on businesses.
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Old 03-23-2006, 05:58 AM   #33
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this is the difference:









these were in Cape Town in January this year.
its an annual occurence normally started, like this one was, by tourists throwing cigarette butts out their car windows driving along the mountain highways.

my mate lost her house in one of these several years back. i dno't know anyone who's ever lost thir house because of an empty chip packet or McDonalds wrapper

and lets not even start on the health implications of all that smoke in the air and the sun being blocked out.

oh, did i mention someone was burnt to death in the above fire as well... yeah, litter is just as bad, you're right
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Old 03-23-2006, 08:33 AM   #34
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Littering is one of my biggest peeves-in my opinion it is the height of human laziness and utter disregard for the environment. And as everyone has pointed out, cigarette butts can and do start fires. I am all for massive fines for littering.

In the public park where I walk every day people litter everywhere, they throw glass liquor bottles all over the side of the road. Even used condoms once in a while Wouldn't that be nice for a child to pick up. They also litter with cigarette butts even in the summer when there are fire danger warnings. There are several trash cans in the park but people are too damn lazy I guess to use them, and they just don't care.
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Old 03-23-2006, 10:10 AM   #35
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Littering is one of my biggest peeves-in my opinion it is the height of human laziness and utter disregard for the environment. And as everyone has pointed out, cigarette butts can and do start fires. I am all for massive fines for littering.





i think someone should quit smoking ...
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Old 03-23-2006, 11:53 AM   #36
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Littering is something no one should do. There are veritable piles of cigarette butts on streets in Birmingham. We have very lax litter laws. Those piles of junk are real eyesores. This kind of thing could be stopped if our stupid City Council would do something about it.
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Old 03-23-2006, 12:19 PM   #37
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I wasn't comparing the two, they're totally different. I was just saying that to me, there are much larger issues surrounding certain fines than the fines for littering.
How you value a fine is the core issue here as it reduces all sets of "wrongs" to a common denominator (money).

I guess there are two ways we can evaluate and set the size of a fine.

One way is to scale the fine based on how "wrong" we deem the action. More severe wrongs should require higher fines.

Another way is to use fines as behavioral modifiers. If a particular action becomes a problem (say, too many people jay walking), increase the fine for that one action to discourage people from further engaging in the action.

Which method we use depends on the principle we want to adopt for imposing fines.
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Old 03-23-2006, 09:40 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

One way is to scale the fine based on how "wrong" we deem the action. More severe wrongs should require higher fines.
Beautiful. Precisely it. Did someone in this thread also mention how long it takes for a cigarette butt to break down? Forgetting that for a sec, after all, we wont be around to witness the end of the butt we flick, I think the danger of lit projectiles from cars is a bloody huge "wrong".
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Old 03-24-2006, 11:45 AM   #39
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Beautiful. Precisely it. Did someone in this thread also mention how long it takes for a cigarette butt to break down? Forgetting that for a sec, after all, we wont be around to witness the end of the butt we flick, I think the danger of lit projectiles from cars is a bloody huge "wrong".
Perfectly valid - now let's compare to the breakdown of the plastic bottle tossed out the window, etc., etc.

As we look at the wider matrix of offenses and potential fines, creating a proper balance becomes far more difficult.
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Old 03-25-2006, 02:22 PM   #40
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Digsy, those pictures...frightening.

We have similar problems in Arizona. Ours is a very dry climate, with little rain. During the summer, the brush and wild grasses are dry and brittle as tinder. And every bloody year, there are wildfires, usually caused by some bozo throwing a cig butt out the window. Litter on the sides of the road is also an eyesore and a big problem (more fuel for the fires, just what we need).

Why can't people use the ashtrays that come standard with every single car on the market?! Or bag their trash up and use a garbage can?! I've even witnessed people throwing their garbage out of their car windows! No class whatsoever!
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Old 03-25-2006, 09:37 PM   #41
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Perfectly valid - now let's compare to the breakdown of the plastic bottle tossed out the window, etc., etc.


ten cent deposits
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Old 03-25-2006, 11:19 PM   #42
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic



ten cent deposits
Which really are a trash tax, not a deposit.

At least in California, you have no real opportunity to recover the entire cost of the so-called depost .
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