The War on Christmas

[the iron horse]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...104-7195306-4138368?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

[VertigoGal]

There was a segment on this on the daily show. A certain speaker had been talking about how Christians were being relegated to the "back of the bus." I can't remember exactly what Jon said, but it was something to the effect of, "Oh yes, maybe someday we'll be able to vote and work...and maybe, just maybe, someday we'll reach such heights as to have 43 consecutive presidents in the white house. Someday..."

I find this whole persecution-complex to be hilarious. Yes, a few of those examples such as not allowing instrumental versions of carols are ridiculous. But the case 99% of the time is basically that in addition to Christmas songs/parties, schools will have kids sing Dreidl. The horror. It may seem a little PC to have "holiday parties" instead of "Christmas parties" but is it such a huge sacrifice to make so that students who are Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, etc feel more included?

I don't think we need to be PC to the point of overdoing it, but recognising the growing number of non-Christians who are also Americans hardly constitutes an "assault on Christmas" or whatever the book said.

 

[indra]

There was a segment on this on the daily show. A certain speaker had been talking about how Christians were being relegated to the "back of the bus." I can't remember exactly what Jon said, but it was something to the effect of, "Oh yes, maybe someday we'll be able to vote and work...and maybe, just maybe, someday we'll reach such heights as to have 43 consecutive presidents in the white house. Someday..."

I find this whole persecution-complex to be hilarious. Yes, a few of those examples such as not allowing instrumental versions of carols are ridiculous. But the case 99% of the time is basically that in addition to Christmas songs/parties, schools will have kids sing Dreidl. The horror. It may seem a little PC to have "holiday parties" instead of "Christmas parties" but is it such a huge sacrifice to make so that students who are Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, etc feel more included?

I don't think we need to be PC to the point of overdoing it, but recognising the growing number of non-Christians who are also Americans hardly constitutes an "assault on Christmas" or whatever the book said.

at Jon Stewart. Pretty much hit the nail on the head, didn't he?

Don't mean to offend any US Christians, but stop yer whining! You aren't being persecuted.

 

[STING2]

There was a segment on this on the daily show. A certain speaker had been talking about how Christians were being relegated to the "back of the bus." I can't remember exactly what Jon said, but it was something to the effect of, "Oh yes, maybe someday we'll be able to vote and work...and maybe, just maybe, someday we'll reach such heights as to have 43 consecutive presidents in the white house. Someday..."

I find this whole persecution-complex to be hilarious. Yes, a few of those examples such as not allowing instrumental versions of carols are ridiculous. But the case 99% of the time is basically that in addition to Christmas songs/parties, schools will have kids sing Dreidl. The horror. It may seem a little PC to have "holiday parties" instead of "Christmas parties" but is it such a huge sacrifice to make so that students who are Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, etc feel more included?

I don't think we need to be PC to the point of overdoing it, but recognising the growing number of non-Christians who are also Americans hardly constitutes an "assault on Christmas" or whatever the book said.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Can you imagine what people would say if an American went to a Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim country and demanded they used the word Holiday or something else in place of what the cultural tradition was there?

 

[Antilarry]

Always with the 'wars', something about the endless use of war as a metaphor creeps me out, particularly when it actually isn't a war.

Help, mum, the war on Christmas is under my bed.

 

[indra]

Put the shoe on the other foot. Can you imagine what people would say if an American went to a Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim country and demanded they used the word Holiday or something else in place of what the cultural tradition was there?

There are US citizens of other faiths. The US is a SECULAR state with people of many (and no) faiths. Christians should not forget that.

 

[BVS]

All I have to say is boo hoo

No one's taking your trees or mangers from your home or church, if that happens then it will be an issue.

Sting let me ask you this. Have you ever gone to a school or worked in an office that had a Jewish holiday party, Muslim holiday party?

 

[MadelynIris]

right.....

we are a generic homogenous flavorless ordorless state.....

we endorse diversity but laugh at the diverse

we belittle Christianity while barely tolerating Islam and others...

that's god with a little G america

 

[yolland]

Put the shoe on the other foot. Can you imagine what people would say if an American went to a Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim country and demanded they used the word Holiday or something else in place of what the cultural tradition was there?

Meaning what? That as a Jewish American, I am the equivalent of a tourist in a foreign land? There have been Jews here since colonial times, and Jewish Americans fought and died in the Revolution (and all our other wars) right alongside the Christians and secularists. Even if that weren't true, it has zero relevance to who "owns" the American cultural legacy. We all do.

Having often had to either work or be in school during Yom Kippur, the holiest day in our calendar (and that's leaving alone all the lesser Jewish holidays unacknowledged by national holiday legislation), I find it hard to be sympathetic to someone going ballistic about how not being able to listen to instrumental carols in school constitutes "religious persecution." I agree with VertigoGal, many of those restrictions are laughably absurd, but the proper locus of blame is PC run amuck, not some nefarious minority plot to take over and run Christians out of the country.

Religious minorities support political secularism because we fear religious majoritarianism (with good historical reason too) and because we believe it is ultimately the fairest way to preserve freedom of religion for everyone--not because we wish to subject Christians or anyone else to everything we've been through. (Not that Christians are strangers to religious persecution either: think Ireland under British rule, the Puritans and the Huguenots, Greek Orthodoxy under the Ottomans, Eastern Orthodox and everyone else under the Soviets, etc. etc....)

If the price of this protection is a little less of those collective national warm fuzzies to go around at holiday time, then so be it. We'll live. I don't need to live in Israel to feel like I belong to the culture around me, and I'd like it to stay that way.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Put the shoe on the other foot. Can you imagine what people would say if an American went to a Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim country and demanded they used the word Holiday or something else in place of what the cultural tradition was there?

Since when did America become a Christian country?

 

[anitram]

Sting let me ask you this. Have you ever gone to a school or worked in an office that had a Jewish holiday party, Muslim holiday party?

I actually work at a place where I am a religious minority and a rarity at that, LOL. And I am Christian (Catholic). Apart from me, there is one Sikh, a Protestant whose denomination I can't remember (Lutheran maybe?), a couple of Chinese Buddhists and everybody else is Jewish.

We have had parties at Jewish restaurants (kosher Chinese even!), we have an annual Christmas Party and an annual Chanukkah party, the workplace empties for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and you have a handful of us left, which usually adds up to us leaving early those days or taking them off as well.

I've never been bothered by having a party in honour of another faith's holiday. In fact, it's kind of cool to double dip the holiday time. And if I want to take Easter Monday off or my coworkers want to take Chinese New Year off, nobody will protest that either, so it works out fine.

Speaking of Jon Stewart, however, I saw his act a couple of weeks ago and he talked about this exact same thing. And he said as a Jewish guy, he thought the complaining about Chanukkah should end because "they're celebrating the birth of their saviour and all we have is oil that lasted a few more days. We just can't compete." He's a funny guy.

 

[martha]

I don't think I have a violin small enough to play for the poor persecuted Christians in the secular United States.

Good Gravy! You'd think Christians really are persecuted here! Go somewhere where they really are and see how much sympathy you get for living in a country where the leaders of the country inject their religion in to law, where you are free to attend church every day if you want, where your religion does not preclude you from attending school, voting, living.

Man, this gets old. Poor things, they only have the president and the fucking Congress.

 

[martha]

Or better yet, ask a Jew who lived in the Soviet Union during the seventies to compare persecutions.

See how much weeping and sympathy you get there.

 

[anitram]

Or better yet, ask a Jew who lived in the Soviet Union during the seventies to compare persecutions.

See how much weeping and sympathy you get there.

I lived in a Communist country as a Catholic.

When I had my first Communion, I had to put my dress on in the backseat of the car so nobody would see us leaving our apartment to go to Church or my mother, who was a Professor at the time would lose her job and face much more serious consequences.

When my Mom was 18, and at college, she went to a pub around Christmas time. Everyone was partying, drinking, and singing Christmas carols. The following day, the police arrived to collect names of all the college students present, so they could be taken in for questioning regarding their subversive activities. She got lucky in that she was not reported, else she would have had a record.

 

[yolland]

^

To my mind, the pervasiveness of secret police and other such forms of ratting on your neighbor was one of the most horrific abuses perpetuated by the Soviet regime. That is poison. No wonder civil society and the public sphere are so impoverished in many of those countries today.

Your Communion story resonates with similar recollections I've heard from Russian Jewish emigrees. It ought to go without saying that state-mandated atheism is as profoundly undemocratic as other forms of religious persecution. Unfortunately, Cold War-era propaganda portraying that conflict as one of Christian-America-vs.-the-Godless-Communists has left a legacy of confusion about the difference between limiting religious expression in the civic sphere and crushing freedom of worship altogether. Western European friends of mine living here have often expressed bewilderment at how Americans tend to interpret an individual's profession of atheism as a combative or defiant gesture, rather than the matter-of-fact statement they take it to be.

I must confess to being astounded by your description of your workplace. Is this typical up there, or is your company exceptionally diverse?

 

[AvsGirl41]

I don't think I have a violin small enough to play for the poor persecuted Christians in the secular United States.

Good Gravy! You'd think Christians really are persecuted here! Go somewhere where they really are and see how much sympathy you get for living in a country where the leaders of the country inject their religion in to law, where you are free to attend church every day if you want, where your religion does not preclude you from attending school, voting, living.

Man, this gets old. Poor things, they only have the president and the fucking Congress.

Martha, out of genuine curiosity, do you have any examples of Christians being persecuted abroad? (Besides the Soviet Union, which I am all too aware of!)

I ask because I made the same comment (this gets old, you haven't been crucified since Constantine!) in a response to some persecution-complex e-mail. My devoutly right-wing cousin came back: "You have a right to your opinion, but I only wish you could hear the stories of my missionary friends and then you would know how badly Christians are treated." I was rather cold back and said if they were missionaries, I wouldn't be surprised if they were treated badly.

She never came back with any examples, she made a vague reference to China but that's another Communist country. No surprise there.

But I was really quite curious as I was really doubting her claim. The whole missionary thing raises an enormous red flag with me so I would not be surprised if they were run out.

I have a long theory as to why Christians feel this complex, perhaps I will post it here...

 

[BVS]

right.....

we are a generic homogenous flavorless ordorless state.....

we endorse diversity but laugh at the diverse

we belittle Christianity while barely tolerating Islam and others...

that's god with a little G america

Come on show me where America is doing this!

And give me a reason why they shouldn't...

 

[Dismantled]

There are US citizens of other faiths. The US is a SECULAR state with people of many (and no) faiths. Christians should not forget that.

 

[nbcrusader]

Typical FYM mentality. Some will defend a charge of racism because the victim should be the one to determine the validity of the charge.

But when it is suggested about Christians, we get responses along the lines of "there are enough of them out there - they can handle it." Guess what - the bigotry is still there.

And we STILL don't have one law that requires you to be a Christian.

 

[nbcrusader]

Martha, out of genuine curiosity, do you have any examples of Christians being persecuted abroad? (Besides the Soviet Union, which I am all too aware of!)

While you directed the question to Martha, when I was in Egypt a few years back, I heard plenty of stories of persecution against both the Coptic and Presbyterian churches there.

 

[verte76]

I don't think this is persecution, and I'm a practicing Catholic, a convert from Protestantism. I have French Huguenot ancestry. Those people were killed in France, they'd had to hide their Bibles in their houses from the authorities, they were sent to the galleys, it was terrible. So a whole slew of them came here. Nothing like that is going on here. There are just a few controversies over Christmas lights and manger scenes. But no one is telling me I can't go to my church for services and classes. The state isn't going to cancel our Catholic Church history classes. That would be persecution, and it's not happening.

 

[verte76]

Since when did America become a Christian country?

We didn't. We're a secular state. Roy Moore claims we're going to hell in a haybasket, but he's running for governor.

 

[randhail]

I find this whole persecution-complex to be hilarious. Yes, a few of those examples such as not allowing instrumental versions of carols are ridiculous. But the case 99% of the time is basically that in addition to Christmas songs/parties, schools will have kids sing Dreidl. The horror. It may seem a little PC to have "holiday parties" instead of "Christmas parties" but is it such a huge sacrifice to make so that students who are Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, etc feel more included?

If I were a teacher and someone told me that I could not have a Christmas party, then I would simply make the people who find it offensive leave the classroom. Why should students be punished because one person raises a stink about it? Christmas has gotten to the point where it is basically non-denominational anyway. I don't think that Santa Claus is mentioned anywhere in bible. Pretty sure that a Christmas tree isn't either.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

If I were a teacher and someone told me that I could not have a Christmas party, then I would simply make the people who find it offensive leave the classroom. Why should students be punished because one person raises a stink about it?

So everyone has a right to participate fully in school unless they happen to be of a faith other than Christianity?

People complaining about bigotry against Christians don't know the meaning of the word. You want to talk about bigotry? Come back when members of your religion are being physically assaulted because of their religion or having abuse shouted at them in the street or having their places of worship attacked or having the national press print headlines implying all followers of that religion are terrorists. That's bigotry, not the fact that parents object to their children being made to sing explicitly Christian songs in schools.

 

[Irvine511]

Typical FYM mentality. Some will defend a charge of racism because the victim should be the one to determine the validity of the charge.

But when it is suggested about Christians, we get responses along the lines of "there are enough of them out there - they can handle it." Guess what - the bigotry is still there.

And we STILL don't have one law that requires you to be a Christian.

we might not have laws that require you to be a christian, but in recent political language, the message comes across that you are a 2nd class american if you are not a person of faith, and more often than not, a very specific faith.

when someone's status as an evangelical Christian is being touted as a qualification for the supreme court, you know that there is a very implicit sense of a national religion -- that one religion is better than the others.

it wasn't always this way, and it won't always be this way in the future, but it is right now, which is why people get exasperated at Christians -- in this particular country -- feeling persecuted. in China, Egypt, the former Soviet Union, yes, absolutely. christians have been and still are victims of persecution. but in this country -- you people run the show, so it's less that you can't be the victim of bigotry and more that the bigotry really cannot affect you because there's no historical precedent for this kind of bigotry to be followed up by political or even physical persecution as has been the historical case for blacks, jews, gays, asians, women, etc. on a purely intellectual level, the structure of bigotry might be the same; on a practical level, a Christian simply does not have to live in fear the way many members of minority groups do.

tell me, when was the last time someone broke into a church and arrested all the members? it used to happen in gay bars all the time.

when was the last time Christians were deemed to be more loyal to, say, the Vatican and thus had to be shipped off to concentration camps in Nevada? it happened to Japanese-Americans in WW2.

when was the last time a Christian in Texas had a chain wrapped around his neck and was dragged around behind a car? it recently happened to an African-American man.

also, it's less that the victim gets to determine the validity of the charge and more that history determines the validity.

you're also quite quick with your FYM assumptions.

 

[yolland]

Some will defend a charge of racism because the victim should be the one to determine the validity of the charge.

But when it is suggested about Christians, we get responses along the lines of "there are enough of them out there - they can handle it." Guess what - the bigotry is still there.

You didn't say whether you considered the examples in the link "bigotry" or not.

 

[stammer476]

Martha, out of genuine curiosity, do you have any examples of Christians being persecuted abroad? (Besides the Soviet Union, which I am all too aware of!)

I ask because I made the same comment (this gets old, you haven't been crucified since Constantine!) in a response to some persecution-complex e-mail. My devoutly right-wing cousin came back: "You have a right to your opinion, but I only wish you could hear the stories of my missionary friends and then you would know how badly Christians are treated." I was rather cold back and said if they were missionaries, I wouldn't be surprised if they were treated badly.

She never came back with any examples, she made a vague reference to China but that's another Communist country. No surprise there.

But I was really quite curious as I was really doubting her claim. The whole missionary thing raises an enormous red flag with me so I would not be surprised if they were run out.

I have a long theory as to why Christians feel this complex, perhaps I will post it here...

AvsGirl, that's an honest and valid question, and one that is important to ask. Its seems that any religious persecution (be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.) doesn't get the media attention that it should, as it is a human rights violation.

A few references for your question on Christian persecution, specifically:

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/1348931.html

http://www.christianfreedom.org/messages.aspx?id=592

http://www.religionjournal.com/showarticle.asp?id=3349

http://www.religionjournal.com/showarticle.asp?id=3279

http://www.religionjournal.com/showarticle.asp?id=3258

http://www.compassdirect.org/en/index.php

From the Voice of the Martyrs website:

http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsID=336

http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsID=334

http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsID=333

http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsID=339

And a blog specifically about Christian persecution around the world:

http://www.persecutionblog.com/

And as NB stated, I also have a very close friend that has spent time in northern Africa for the past two summers. He has relayed to me many stories of persecution among the people he lived with.

 

[Maggie1]

If I were a teacher and someone told me that I could not have a Christmas party, then I would simply make the people who find it offensive leave the classroom. Why should students be punished because one person raises a stink about it? Christmas has gotten to the point where it is basically non-denominational anyway. I don't think that Santa Claus is mentioned anywhere in bible. Pretty sure that a Christmas tree isn't either.

When I taught school, I had several children of different religions in my classroom. It is rare that there is just one who is not a christian. Because of this, I called my christmas party a holiday social. This was to respect all the children in my class. I have never felt that the school is the place to promote any religion so by calling it a holiday social it took the religion out of the party which was fine with me. Also it would not be appropriate to exclude anyone from anything in a public school classroom or any classroom. How would you feel if someone did that to you?

 

[yolland]

Everyone, be sure to do yourself a favor and read all the reviews posted on Amazon for this book! No matter what your take on this issue is, you're guaranteed to find a screamer or two in there.

This one is up there with Plato's Republic, Aristotle's Ethics, Dante's Inferno, and The Left Behind Series.

why doe John Gibson hat America?

It tastes like ignorance and hot lead.

All they are devoted to is their capitalist greed on the backs of third world child labor. Yeah, that's what the season's all about.

I look forward to Gibson's next book: How Liberals are out to Ban Chocolate and Institute Mandatory Puppy-Kicking.

How did it ever come to this, that the minority is calling the shots. NO ONE is taking away Christmas for me. Oh yeah, maybe they want us to celebrate Kwanza instead.

Well, isn't it sadly amusing how one liberal athiest self-loathing punk spent hours writing multiple one star reviews and likely playing with himself when he finished and saw his creation.
No wonder the godless wacko left hated this book - it is an absolute masterpiece!!

As long as those stinking liberals keep their hands off of Festivus, I don't really care. But they'll have to pry my Festivus pole out of my cold, dead hands.

 

[nbcrusader]

People complaining about bigotry against Christians don't know the meaning of the word. You want to talk about bigotry? Come back when members of your religion are being physically assaulted because of their religion or having abuse shouted at them in the street or having their places of worship attacked or having the national press print headlines implying all followers of that religion are terrorists.

Now it is a matter of degree? You can be a bigot as long as you don't physically assult someone, etc.? This goes back to a concept of "acceptable" bigotry.

That's bigotry, not the fact that parents object to their children being made to sing explicitly Christian songs in schools.

Where does this come from? The examples given in the book had nothing to do with forcing children to sing explicitly Christian songs. Quite the contrary, it prohibited a Christian from using the simple expression of "Merry Christmas".