The War on Christmas

[Dreadsox]

Wow, I can't believe I just slogged through 14 whole pages of this?

Adjust your settings....I only slogged through ten pages

 

[nbcrusader]

And how many Christians know what Yom Kippur stands for? Or the reasoning behind Ramadan?

If children don't know what Christmas refers to, then their parents have failed, not their schools.

Melon

It was an observation, not a value judgment. Despite the tradition of Christmas parties in schools, no children are learning about Jesus Christ because of the parties. So there is no establishment threat here.

 

[nbcrusader]

Traditions do evolve over time. But they typcially don't change because a couple of people decided to go to court to force their political agenda on a country of 300 million people. Also, moving the main gift giving time from New Years Eve to Christmas in the late 19th century is not a very good parallel to what were talking about here.

Agreed. There is a significant difference between changing traditions in society, and a small group trying to eliminate a tradition they have labeled "offensive".

 

[nbcrusader]

Why do you keep talking about moving to another country. This isn't about people moving here wanting to make a change. It's about the people here realizing this country is not a Christian country. That there are other religions and when attending school, we should take that into consideration.

No, you are not asking to take other faiths into consideration. You've explicitly stated that using the word "Christmas" should be justified somehow.

The "people here" wanting the change will argue that Christians are a majority (so they should complain about bigotry directed at them), yet flip and say this is not a Christian country (no one has argued that it is exlusively Christian).

We've gotten to the point that secular Christmas can be labeled "exclusionary" and thus should be removed from public view.

 

[nbcrusader]

This kind of stubborn insistence on "Christmas parties" in schools is really more for the adults than children. I'm fairly sure I would have jumped at any chance to discover new traditions and cultures, especially since "real Christmas" is December 25th.

But it's the adults who are scared of multiculturalism, and--the larger subtext--losing cultural domination of America.

Melon

Ah, now we get to the subtle charge of bigotry.


It was only a matter of time.

 

[Irvine511]

No, you are not asking to take other faiths into consideration. You've explicitly stated that using the word "Christmas" should be justified somehow.

The "people here" wanting the change will argue that Christians are a majority (so they should complain about bigotry directed at them), yet flip and say this is not a Christian country (no one has argued that it is exlusively Christian).

We've gotten to the point that secular Christmas can be labeled "exclusionary" and thus should be removed from public view.

fine you can have your party.

just agree to call it an "Xmas party."

this isn't a Christian country, in that it isn't a theocracy (yet ... don't worry, i'm standing guard), but that the country has many, many Christians who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions. to everyone else, it seems odd that a majority, who seem to set the tone for political discourse which has become frighteningly imbued with religiosity, and that this majority is often extremely public about their faith (as they are allowed to do so) also seem to be looking to find places for them to feel discriminated against.

it's the same principle that has given Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, G. Gordon Liddy, Sean Hannity, and especially Bill O'Reilly their success -- what they've done is manage to make white people, especially white males, feel as if they are victims of such boogeymen as "political correctness." they market nostalgia, and lies of a past that never existed, and cover up those who were excluded and marginalized in the past, and people eat it up.

 

[nbcrusader]

this isn't a Christian country, in that it isn't a theocracy (yet ... don't worry, i'm standing guard), but that the country has many, many Christians who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions. to everyone else, it seems odd that a majority, who seem to set the tone for political discourse which has become frighteningly imbued with religiosity, and that this majority is often extremely public about their faith (as they are allowed to do so) also seem to be looking to find places for them to feel discriminated against.

Before tossing out an argument, you should make sure the reverse does not apply to yourself.

 

[verte76]

I went to a high school where Jews actually outnumbered Christians. We didn't have a Christmas party, we had a Hannukah (I know, I murdered the spelling) party at which the Jewish students read from the Torah and other assorted Jewish texts. It was pretty cool.

 

[nbcrusader]

I went to a high school where Jews actually outnumbered Christians. We didn't have a Christmas party, we had a Hannukah (I know, I murdered the spelling) party at which the Jewish students read from the Torah and other assorted Jewish texts. It was pretty cool.

Both my kids have celebrated Hanukkah in public school (no reading of the Torah, however).

Curiously, there was no stampede to protect the non-Jewish students from a perception of "exclusion". But, then again, rarely are these arguments based on principles consistently applied.

 

[Irvine511]

Before tossing out an argument, you should make sure the reverse does not apply to yourself.

care to expound?

could it be that one group has a much, much better case to make when it comes to being discriminated against than other groups?

i favor a Constitutional Amendment to ban Christmas.

how's that feel?

 

[Irvine511]

Both my kids have celebrated Hanukkah in public school (no reading of the Torah, however).

Curiously, there was no stampede to protect the non-Jewish students from a perception of "exclusion". But, then again, rarely are these arguments based on principles consistently applied.

for gosh sakes, there's nothing wrong with having holiday celebrations in schools, there is a problem when they use exclusive nomenclature.

why can't the 5th graders simply have a Holiday Party, and during that afternoon on the Thursday before Xmas vacation, all the kids learn about and make decorations and celebrate and learn the traditions of all the major holidays that tend to take place in December?

why is that such an affont to Christmas?

 

[yolland]

Both my kids have celebrated Hanukkah in public school (no reading of the Torah, however).

Curiously, there was no stampede to protect the non-Jewish students from a perception of "exclusion". But, then again, rarely are these arguments based on principles consistently applied.

If your kids were not allowed to have a "Christmas" celebration at the same time (or an appropriate other date), then it was definitely exclusionary and there would definitely be an inconsistency. If they were allowed, however, than you have no case.

Are you suggesting you had a problem with it personally?

 

[nbcrusader]

care to expound?

could it be that one group has a much, much better case to make when it comes to being discriminated against than other groups?

Let's take your original phrase:

"but that the country has many, many Christians who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions."


and change a couple of words:

"but that the country has many, many liberals who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions."



And there is no argument for discrimination. It has only been a rather vague concept of "feeling excluded".

 

[melon]

Let's take your original phrase:

"but that the country has many, many Christians who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions."


and change a couple of words:

"but that the country has many, many liberals who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions."

I'd rather complain in favor of inclusion (liberalism) than complain in favor of exclusion (conservatism).

Melon

 

[nbcrusader]

If your kids were not allowed to have a "Christmas" celebration at the same time (or an appropriate other date), then it was definitely exclusionary and there would definitely be an inconsistency. If they were allowed, however, than you have no case.

Are you suggesting you had a problem with it personally?

No, I had no problem with it personally.

And there were aspects of secular Christmas in the classroom (all the kids made reindeer t-shirts).

The point is: no one made an effort to remove words that were rooted in various religions.

 

[nbcrusader]

I'd rather complain in favor of inclusion (liberalism) than complain in favor of exclusion (conservatism).

Melon

Funny, none of your arguments have been about inclusion.

 

[nbcrusader]

for gosh sakes, there's nothing wrong with having holiday celebrations in schools, there is a problem when they use exclusive nomenclature.

So, let's try and develop a principle we can apply consistently.

If a term can be deemed to exclude a person, it should be dropped?

Can you please articulate the principle that should be applied consistently?

 

[yolland]

No, I had no problem with it personally.

And there were aspects of secular Christmas in the classroom (all the kids made reindeer t-shirts).

The point is: no one made an effort to remove words that were rooted in various religions.

Oh. Well, to me anyway, it makes no difference. If the substance of inclusion is there (which it was), who cares if it's called a "Christmas/Chanukah party" as opposed to "Holiday" or whatever. JMO.

Glad to hear you at least don't have a problem with there being a Chanukah gesture in there, though. It's the implication that I'm being subversive, or anti-Christian, or worse, anti-American to *want* such a gesture that angers and, not to be melodramatic, deeply wounds and saddens me. I've never objected to a "Christmas" presence, myself.

 

[melon]

Funny, none of your arguments have been about inclusion.

Then maybe you need to get your eyes checked.

My argument has not been about "excluding" Christmas. It's about "including" additional religious traditions, since it is called the "holiday season" for a reason. And, just to give you a hint, there's more than just Christian holidays in that season. If a certain minority of Christians can't handle exposure to different cultures and traditions, maybe they can be shipped off to "computer time."

Melon

 

[Irvine511]

Let's take your original phrase:

"but that the country has many, many Christians who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions."


and change a couple of words:

"but that the country has many, many liberals who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions."



And there is no argument for discrimination. It has only been a rather vague concept of "feeling excluded".

i see -- so you're going to conflate a very, very loosely defined political world with something as specific as Christianity.

the analogy holds no water. you've constructed a false choice.

what liberalism has always been about, in this context, is acknowledging that no particular group, whether in the majority or minorty, is a priori "better" than the other -- thus, to hold one up as "normal" makes the other, by definition, "less than normal" and confers that feeling of 2nd class citizen-ness upon those in the minority.

hence, the problem becomes solved with the phrase "holiday" party -- we acknoweldge that pretty much everyone has holidays to celebrate in December, so on one day when we can spare 45 minutes from the cramming teachers have to do because all education now comes down to a bunch of federal and state tests we talk about the major holidays that are represented in the class, we get some history, some decorations -- the dreidle next to the reindeer -- some cookies, some punch, and everyone gets a chance to both represent their family's tradition as well as learn about someone else's.

a Christmas party, which is by definition about a single religion, unless we were to set aside a day for every holiday to have their own separate party, can accomplish none of this.

it excludes.

but, hey, what do white christian Americans know about exclusion?

 

[Irvine511]

So, let's try and develop a principle we can apply consistently.

If a term can be deemed to exclude a person, it should be dropped?

Can you please articulate the principle that should be applied consistently?

when you're talking about the public schools, yep.

also, not necessarily dropped, but perhaps modified.

 

[nbcrusader]

i see -- so you're going to conflate a very, very loosely defined political world with something as specific as Christianity.

the analogy holds no water. you've constructed a false choice.

what liberalism has always been about, in this context, is acknowledging that no particular group, whether in the majority or minorty, is a priori "better" than the other -- thus, to hold one up as "normal" makes the other, by definition, "less than normal" and confers that feeling of 2nd class citizen-ness upon those in the minority.

hence, the problem becomes solved with the phrase "holiday" party -- we acknoweldge that pretty much everyone has holidays to celebrate in December, so on one day when we can spare 45 minutes from the cramming teachers have to do because all education now comes down to a bunch of federal and state tests we talk about the major holidays that are represented in the class, we get some history, some decorations -- the dreidle next to the reindeer -- some cookies, some punch, and everyone gets a chance to both represent their family's tradition as well as learn about someone else's.

a Christmas party, which is by definition about a single religion, unless we were to set aside a day for every holiday to have their own separate party, can accomplish none of this.

it excludes.

Talk about your false choices. Using the word Christmas establishes a "norm", thus automatically creating second class citizens? A Christmas party, as done in schools over the generations, is not about a religion. It is about a secular tradition. And like so many things in society, not everyone adopts those particular traditions. But we have no systematic program in place to erase traditions not embrased by everyone.

but, hey, what do white christian Americans know about exclusion?

I guess a one-way conversation is easier.



But, then again,

 

[nbcrusader]

when you're talking about the public schools, yep.

also, not necessarily dropped, but perhaps modified.

Yep to what?

I'll leave you to articulate the appropriate standard.

 

[Irvine511]

Talk about your false choices. Using the word Christmas establishes a "norm", thus automatically creating second class citizens? A Christmas party, as done in schools over the generations, is not about a religion. It is about a secular tradition. And like so many things in society, not everyone adopts those particular traditions. But we have no systematic program in place to erase traditions not embrased by everyone.

so let's take the secular trappings of christmas, and combine them with the secular trappings of other holidays that take place in december, and line them all up next to each other under the umbrella of "holiday" thereby making all children feel different, but equally valued and special, and leave it at that.

why do you insist on the exclusivity of a christmas party?

if i were to have a volleyball team party, i'd be happy for people who weren't on the volleyball team to show up and party with us, but at the end of the day, the party is for and about the volleyball players.

same principle applies.

 

[Irvine511]

Yep to what?

I'll leave you to articulate the appropriate standard.

yep to we try to find language that's as inclusive as possible.

hence, holiday party vs. christmas party.

i don't understand -- it's such an easy way to make everyone happy.

are you threatened by the suggestion that, in the eyes of the public schools, one religion isn't better than the other?

 

[financeguy]

yep to we try to find language that's as inclusive as possible.

hence, holiday party vs. christmas party.

i don't understand -- it's such an easy way to make everyone happy.

are you threatened by the suggestion that, in the eyes of the public schools, one religion isn't better than the other?

Because it's not a 'holiday' party, it's a Christmas party. Why no similar push to force Jewish communities to rename their celebrations 'holiday' parties? Should Hallowe'en be renamed 'October Holiday'?

 

[Irvine511]

Because it's not a 'holiday' party, it's a Christmas party. Why no similar push to force Jewish communities to rename their celebrations 'holiday' parties? Should Hallowe'en be renamed 'October Holiday'?

a Hannukkah celebration is an ideal component of this Holiday Party.

Halloween is a secular celebration.

 

[melon]

Because it's not a 'holiday' party, it's a Christmas party. Why no similar push to force Jewish communities to rename their celebrations 'holiday' parties? Should Hallowe'en be renamed 'October Holiday'?

If Jewish communities have control of a public school that happen to have a minority of other religions in its school, I'd tell them to open up their holiday festivities too.

And, last I heard, Halloween is fully secular. After all, every year, we get a good dose of articles where clerics of many stripes hate it.

Melon

 

[financeguy]

Halloween is a secular celebration.

Not necessarily, it clearly has pagan origins. Paganism could be considered a religion in its own right.

As others have argued on the thread, Christmas has also become increasingly secular - it seems to me a bit over the top to argue that holding a 'Christmas party' is akin to religious proselytisation.

 

[randhail]

Throw in Valentine's Day as a holiday with religious origins. Should kids stop giving out cards and candy at school on that day too? Or should we call it "Non-denominational, everyone is included so no one throws a hissy fit about it day?"