The War on Christmas

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Sherry Darling said:


Sting, perhaps this didn't come across over the Internet, but I asked you an honest question in a sincere effort to understand where you are coming from. It did not warrent the hostile tone above. Can't you discuss this a bit more civilly? I'd appreciate it.

You've asked, so I will describe. My experience is coming from two main experiences--one being a teacher, and two, having lived abroad in cultures radically different from mine where I was the minority, which "put the shoe on the other foot" and taught me what "benign" exclusion is really like. It's degrading, isolating, confusing and painful. Peace Corps is one example when I was in Zimbabwe, the only whiter person and American for several hundred miles. Kids would follow me around any time I went outside in wide-eyed fascination. I was harassed on buses.

Meanwhile, in the classroom. I asked about you classroom experience, String (which you did not answer) because it was amazing to me that someone suggested this issue hasn't been, well, an issue. Anyone in the past 15 years on either side of the desk has had to deal with it. The solution I used wasn't terribly tough: the day before break, we brought in chips, soda, etc, some kids baked Christmas cookies, our school was decorated some for winter (snowflakes, snowmen, etc) and Christmas andHaunakua (sp? ack!) but that's it. In an area (No. VA) with HUGE Asian and Middle Eastern popuations, no Ramadan or Buddist recognition by our public education institutions, which are supported by tax payer $ from Christians and non-Christians alike. I did not call our party a Christmas party--I think I usually used the word holiday. Non-Christian kids had to take days off for their holy days, which created more work for both of us and sent a clear message to the kids (whether intended or no) that their culture is not the one our public (again TAX $ SUPPORTED) institutions recognize, just as sending a Jewish or Buddist or JW kid to the library while other kids have a Christmas party sends that message. You are different, and you need not to be or go away. :down: Perhaps it takes having had the experience of being a minority to really understand this.

Funny, it may seem ironic, but as a Christian who wants to follow the example of the Christ who reached out to the socially undesirable Samaritan, I can't support such exclusion. It comes down to two principles for me. 1. If you pay taxes into a system, it should at least in part represent you. 2. Treat people how you'd want them to treat you.

I guess what I'm submitting, Sting, in response to your sentence that you haven't seen any trouble caused, is that just because you haven't seen it hardly means it hasn't happened.

I don't see how my post was uncivil. I simply tried to explain my opinion on the issue.

Certainly, people from other countries are going to have to deal with some level of "benign" exclusion when they first come to this country, whether its because they have not fully learned the language yet or simply feel they stick out among so many "white" people. Changing the name of a Christmas party to a Holiday party is not going to change the difficulty that many will have adjusting.

As far as having a Christmas party in the classroom, there is no reason to send anyone to the library. Everyone can participate in, making gifts, giving gifts, eating food, sitting on Santa's lap if they want to etc. You don't have to be a Christian to celebrate Christmas or enjoy a Christmas party. When I say celebrate Christmas, I don't mean necessarily going to mass, although some Muslims do attend Christmas Mass in Bethlehem every year.

As I have said before, Christmas is part of the American tradition, and no one should have to change the name of a "Christmas Party" to a "Holiday Party" just to satisfy some over anxious person who does not necessarily represent the views of their minority as a whole. I also don't think a school should suddenly have to remove a cross or other structure just because it has a tie to Christianity that was apart of the original building. I don't support the movement to remove anything from public life that might, and I underline might, remotely have a connection to a particular religion.
 
yolland said:

Did I ever say or suggest I felt persecuted by Christmas parties?

So if you could go back with me to one of those "holiday" parties at my grade school in Itta Bena in the 70s, where as I was saying, no Christian child ever complained...you would tell them they should complain, that having that token menorah and dreidl song in there for me was a threat and they should not let the teacher get away with it, and should demand moreover that the party be called a "Christmas party" too?

Christmas is part of the American tradition, and there is no reason to have to suddenly in the last half of the 20th century to call a Christmas Party a Holiday Party.
 
melon said:


Stop thinking about what you're losing, and think about what you'd be gaining if you had a party that celebrated several religious traditions. If you want a hardcore Christmas party, celebrate it with like-minded friends and family at home, or organize one with your church. Again, Christmas is not cancelled when you do not have government acknowledgement of it.

Melon

There is nothing wrong with celebrating something that is an American tradition in American. Think of all the years that a Christmas Party was called a Christmas Party and no one even remotely thought about calling it a Holiday Party. Did anyone suffer adversly? Removing American traditions is not the way to bring about some sort of diversity or greater inclusiveness. Other celebrations are not cancelled because something in government does in some way acknowledge Christmas.
 
STING2 said:
There is nothing wrong with celebrating something that is an American tradition in American. Think of all the years that a Christmas Party was called a Christmas Party and no one even remotely thought about calling it a Holiday Party. Did anyone suffer adversly? Removing American traditions is not the way to bring about some sort of diversity or greater inclusiveness. Other celebrations are not cancelled because something in government does in some way acknowledge Christmas.

Traditions change. See the gift giving shift from New Years Eve to Christmas in the late 19th century as a prime example. If it's good enough to tell the minority to shut up and take it, then I'll tell the majority this:

"Shut up and take it."

Melon
 
I'd like to see the Christian establishment turn against this corporate holiday itself and denounce it.

There is nothing wrong with celebrating the birth of Jesus, but #1-get the date right (at least closer to March than December)and #2-turn the occassion back into a religous holiday, solely. That way there is no grey area. Christians could feel free to have their religous holdiday free from being "toyed" with by the state, by removing the holiday itself from the state. As long as it's part oif the state, in some way and remains a religous holiday in part, it's going to continually be "toyed" with.

They won't do it. Why? The people who defend Christmas as a national holiday defend all aspects of it. The commercial aspect and religous aspects are one. All in the name of tradition. A tradition not all that removed from other traditions that needed to be changed.

They cry "why should WE have to change OUR tradition?" Oblivious to the problems, ignorant to the loss of the true meanings, it's a pointless argument. You can only be seen as "hatin' on Jesus" if you "toy" with it.

I used to love Christmas, I have loathed it for many years.
I think it's an absolute embarassment to honor Jesus this way.
An absolute embarassment.

and yes, Easter has it's own commercial offensiveness to me, but it's far less of a bastardized occassion. I just think Christmas, it's true meanings are completely lost on most people, even well intended, good Christian people are lost in this vaunted "tradition"
 
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VertigoGal said:
Sting, it's not excluding Christmas, it's including other traditions as well. I think deep down some Christians are just afraid of losing their idea of America as a Christian nation.

Having a Christmas Party does not prevent having a different type of celebration on another day, nor does it prevent acknowledgement or celebration of another tradition. I can't imagine going to another country and demanding they stop calling or performing centuries old traditions because it was not apart of my culture or tradition. On the contrary, I'd be far more interested in immersing myself in the culture rather than trying to water it down or block it.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:

Well they do say ignorance is bliss. It's nice being part of the majority all your life, I'm guessing the only place you've ever been a minority is in here being part of the conservative few. Being a minority in real life is much different.

Well for your information there are those that feel their faith isn't respected as much as others because of this practice in our school system. How do I know this, because I've had this conversation many many times. A part of my family is Jewish.

200, 100, 50 years ago?! You don't say. Well hell women voting and slavery weren't problems back then either. DAMN THOSE MINORITIES!!!

Its always interesting when people make ignorant presumptions about others. Part of my family is also Jewish. Also interesting to see that calling a Christmas Party a Christmas Party is now being compared to slavery.
 
STING2 said:


There is nothing wrong with celebrating something that is an American tradition in American. Think of all the years that a Christmas Party was called a Christmas Party and no one even remotely thought about calling it a Holiday Party. Did anyone suffer adversly? Removing American traditions is not the way to bring about some sort of diversity or greater inclusiveness. Other celebrations are not cancelled because something in government does in some way acknowledge Christmas.

In other words "because that's the way it is".

I'd be willing to listen to a compelling argument the other way, but this line of thinking is reminiscent of the close-mindedness that I believe truly seperates this country more than anything.

People grow up and have to read in their American history books, about embarassing stains on this countrys image because of people who just want to play up to "traditions" and doing things because "that's the way they are".

No, this issue is not tantamount to segregation or more harsh situations, but the point being made is about "traditions". Traditions only mean as much to each individual as they mean to that individual. Once you begin enforcing your own traditions on others, you step into a precarious area where you have ceased being accomodating to differences and you just want it your way "because tha's the way it is/was."It's never a good excuse.

It is no big deal to me, personally, whatever they want to call it they can call it. When this corporate holiday really gets back some of it's meaning, I'll take note and take issue when it is disparaged, until then it's another day off from work.

I am not a champion of the anti-Christmas cause or anything, I just think it's a fight that isn't worth fighting for. It's not a hallowed meaningful religous holiday, maybe it never was, but I think increasingly it's not a Jesus issue.
 
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melon said:


Traditions change. See the gift giving shift from New Years Eve to Christmas in the late 19th century as a prime example. If it's good enough to tell the minority to shut up and take it, then I'll tell the majority this:

"Shut up and take it."

Melon

Traditions do evolve over time. But they typcially don't change because a couple of people decided to go to court to force their political agenda on a country of 300 million people. Also, moving the main gift giving time from New Years Eve to Christmas in the late 19th century is not a very good parallel to what were talking about here.
 
STING2 said:


Having a Christmas Party does not prevent having a different type of celebration on another day, nor does it prevent acknowledgement or celebration of another tradition. I can't imagine going to another country and demanding they stop calling or performing centuries old traditions because it was not apart of my culture or tradition. On the contrary, I'd be far more interested in immersing myself in the culture rather than trying to water it down or block it.

Well, seeing as no one is really in school ON Christmas, it really is just a party taking place in winter or the holiday season. What is the problem with including other traditions as well? You act as if America is a Christian nation and those of other faiths don't also make up its "culture." Which is funny, because I always thought that one of the very things that set this country apart was that it is not defined by a certain ethnic race or religion, the whole "melting pot" and all. If I were going to Saudi Arabia I'd expect to immerse myself in the Islamic culture but that's not how I'd like to think of this country.

And really, this isn't banning all private family or neighborhood Christmas parties, it's just making parties in publicly funded schools more inclusive and representative of the faiths of other Americans.
 
U2DMfan said:


In other words "because that's the way it is".

I'd be willing to listen to a compelling argument the other way, but this line of thinking is reminiscent of the close-mindedness that I believe truly seperates this country more than anything.

People grow up and have to read in their American history books, about embarassing stains on this countrys image because of people who just want to play up to "traditions" and doing things because "that's the way they are".

No, this issue is not tantamount to segregation or more harsh situations, but the point being made is about "traditions". Traditions only mean as much to each individual as they mean to that individual. Once you begin enforcing your own traditions on others, you step into a precarious area where you have ceased being accomodating to differences and you just want it your way "because tha's the way it is/was."It's never a good excuse.

It is no big deal to me, personally, whatever they want to call it they can call it. When this corporate holiday really gets back some of it's meaning, I'll take note and take issue when it is disparaged, until then it's another day off from work.

I am not a champion of the anti-Christmas cause or anything, I just think it's a fight that isn't worth fighting for. It's not a hallowed meaningful religous holiday, maybe it never was, but I think increasingly it's not a Jesus issue.

So if one moves to a new country where there are centuries old cultural traditions, the entire country should remove or cancel such traditions in a way to "accomadate" the new citizen. That is beyond absurd.
 
VertigoGal said:


Well, seeing as no one is really in school ON Christmas, it really is just a party taking place in winter or the holiday season. What is the problem with including other traditions as well? You act as if America is a Christian nation and those of other faiths don't also make up its "culture." Which is funny, because I always thought that one of the very things that set this country apart was that it is not defined by a certain ethnic race or religion, the whole "melting pot" and all. If I were going to Saudi Arabia I'd expect to immerse myself in the Islamic culture but that's not how I'd like to think of this country.

And really, this isn't banning all private family or neighborhood Christmas parties, it's just making parties in publicly funded schools more inclusive and representative of the faiths of other Americans.

There was nothing wrong with Christmas parties at school in the 1880s. There was nothing wrong with Christmas parties at school in the 1930s. There is nothing wrong with having a Christmas party at school today. Having a Christmas party does not exclude anyone. You don't have to be a christian to participate in a Christmas party. Oh the horror of wrapping and giving gifts, eating candy and other food, Christmas Decorations, sitting on santa's lap. You don't have to be a Christian to do these things. I think it is wrong to suddenly have to ban something because a couple of people suddenly have decided that it is offensive to them. Its part of the culture here and no the United States is not a culturless nation. You don't have to call a Christmas Party a Holiday Party to satisfy a couple of over anxious people attempting to push their political agenda on the rest of the country.
 
Dread: too bad ;) Feel better. :(

Sting: A couple of points I might make in response to your last post.

1. From a practical point of view, any teacher can tell you it's not possible to include the holy days of every kid. We'd ever get any teaching done. LOL. Hence from this standpoint, a more all purpose "holiday" fest is the best way to handle scheduling in a way that is inclusive.

2. Your consistently seem to assume that people who protest Christmas are immigrants. This is a telling and false assumption. I would respectfully encourage you to revisit it.

3. You also consistently characertize people who object to their Muslim/Jewish/atheist kid as "whiners" or "over anxious" or "pushing a political agenda". What evidence can you bring to bear to support this description? And what makes you think it's just a few people, anyway? Why, just a tally of this thread alone demonstrates otherwise. BVS, Yolland, Dread, VG and I hardly fit that description, do we?

The below is a general statement and not directed at anyone in specific but musings on people who oppose a simple inclusive gesture such as "holiday party" instead of "Christmas party":
Why so unwilling to share public space? Why can't we just include everyone just cause it's nice to do so? Because we're a welcoming people who are secure enough to be okay with folks who aren't like us?
 
STING2 said:


So if one moves to a new country where there are centuries old cultural traditions, the entire country should remove or cancel such traditions in a way to "accomadate" the new citizen. That is beyond absurd.

Well, I didn't say that but read what you want to read.
No point in going any further.
 
Christmas... Christ mass or Christ festival. Whether you take it as such ot not, it is a holiday (the word used to be Holy day) that celebrates a religious figure. I don't think there are many kids who don't recognize the word/name Christ and understand what it refers to, whether their families worship or not.
 
STING2 said:


Its always interesting when people make ignorant presumptions about others. Part of my family is also Jewish. Also interesting to see that calling a Christmas Party a Christmas Party is now being compared to slavery.

I made no presumptions or comparisons. I'm just showing other American "traditions" that have changed.
 
STING2 said:


I can't imagine going to another country and demanding they stop calling or performing centuries old traditions because it was not apart of my culture or tradition. On the contrary, I'd be far more interested in immersing myself in the culture rather than trying to water it down or block it.

Why do you keep talking about moving to another country. This isn't about people moving here wanting to make a change. It's about the people here realizing this country is not a Christian country. That there are other religions and when attending school, we should take that into consideration.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


I made no presumptions or comparisons. I'm just showing other American "traditions" that have changed.

Really?:eyebrow:

Check out this qoute.

"Well they do say ignorance is bliss. It's nice being part of the majority all your life, I'm guessing the only place you've ever been a minority is in here being part of the conservative few. Being a minority in real life is much different."
 
Sherry Darling said:
Dread: too bad ;) Feel better. :(

Sting: A couple of points I might make in response to your last post.

1. From a practical point of view, any teacher can tell you it's not possible to include the holy days of every kid. We'd ever get any teaching done. LOL. Hence from this standpoint, a more all purpose "holiday" fest is the best way to handle scheduling in a way that is inclusive.

2. Your consistently seem to assume that people who protest Christmas are immigrants. This is a telling and false assumption. I would respectfully encourage you to revisit it.

3. You also consistently characertize people who object to their Muslim/Jewish/atheist kid as "whiners" or "over anxious" or "pushing a political agenda". What evidence can you bring to bear to support this description? And what makes you think it's just a few people, anyway? Why, just a tally of this thread alone demonstrates otherwise. BVS, Yolland, Dread, VG and I hardly fit that description, do we?

The below is a general statement and not directed at anyone in specific but musings on people who oppose a simple inclusive gesture such as "holiday party" instead of "Christmas party":
Why so unwilling to share public space? Why can't we just include everyone just cause it's nice to do so? Because we're a welcoming people who are secure enough to be okay with folks who aren't like us?

A Christmas Party is not a Holy Day. Teachers have had Christmas parties for centuries in this country and it obviously did not do anyone any real harm. Its a part of American culture. I never heard anyone describe America as a non-inclusive country because people had "Christmas Parties" instead of "Holiday Parties".

So you can prove that no immigrant families have ever protested the fact that the party was called a Christmas Party and not a Holiday Party?

It always tends to be a small number of people who go to court to remove x considered to be a reference to Christianity.

I forgot that FYM was a perfect example of America. The polls we had in here certainly reflected the outcome of the election, I guess there really is a mass movement to enforce "Holiday Parties" as opposed to "Christmas Parties".

Yep, Christmas Parties always were a way to exclude other people. Thats the whole point of giving gifts to other people regardless of their faith or race, eating food, and asking Santa for a couple of things in the stocking.

Why should a country have to change a tradition because a few people suddenly don't like it? No one is excluded by having a Christmas Party unless someone tells one to leave which they should not.

Its ok to maintain cultural traditions that have been in place for centuries. Such traditions are not done to exclude anyone and everyone is open to participate in them. So have some Cake, talk to a friend, give a gift, decorate a tree, and go over to the big man in the red suit if you feel like it. :wink:
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Why do you keep talking about moving to another country. This isn't about people moving here wanting to make a change. It's about the people here realizing this country is not a Christian country. That there are other religions and when attending school, we should take that into consideration.

Having a Christmas Party at school is a tradition, not an enforcement of state religion. Its been apart of American culture for centuries now, and no, a Christmas party is not parallel to 19th century slavery.
 
How many Christmas parties, school or office or wherever, actually have anything to do with Christmas though? (not including drunk guys wearing Santa hats).

They're really 'End of Year' parties. I'm sure some schools incorporate the Christmas story in or whatever, but seriously, most Christmas parties are about as un-Christian as you could possibly get...
 
That's actually very true.

I think in these days, the term Christmas Party refers to only the proximity of the actual holiday - ie. late December. I've had Christmas Parties at various jobs for no reason other than to slack off for an afternoon, or catch a hockey game from a corporate box. Nobody brought in a mini manger with them.
 
This kind of stubborn insistence on "Christmas parties" in schools is really more for the adults than children. I'm fairly sure I would have jumped at any chance to discover new traditions and cultures, especially since "real Christmas" is December 25th.

But it's the adults who are scared of multiculturalism, and--the larger subtext--losing cultural domination of America.

Melon
 
Yeah, office Christmas parties have absolutely nothing to do with Christmas. The CEO gets up and makes an awful speech blowing the trumpet of the company mainly for the benefit of the clients who are there. A drunk staff member heckles him/her at his own peril. A few other drunk staff members get 'inappropriate' with each other publicly and end up embarrassed. A few others make failed drunken attempts at this and end up embarrassed. Someone throws up. Someone cries. Someone falls over and busts something. Someone ends up punching a waiter who is trying to get them to take their cigarette outside. Three Wise Men this is not. They're 'End of Year' parties, both in a business and social sense, and nothing more.

Mr Earnie Shavers, of course, is always perfectly well behaved. :drunk:
 
STING2 said:
Thats the way its been in this country for centuries.
It was not problem 200 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago, and is really only and issue now because a small minority has decided to whine about it.

I think the following material, primarily from the History Channel's website, makes it clear that Christmas was not at all the same holiday we know today 200 years ago. Still less is it some pure and uncorrupted cultural legacy tying today's taxpayer-funded kiddie parties directly into the "American culture" of the Founding Fathers, who after all WERE the architects of American national identity as we know it. "Christmas," as observed in school parties today, is a Victorian-era creation.

In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, "replaced" pagan religion. On Christmas, believers attended church, then celebrated raucously in a drunken, carnival-like atmosphere similar to today's Mardi Gras. Each year, a beggar or student would be crowned the "lord of misrule" and eager celebrants played the part of his subjects. The poor would go to the houses of the rich and demand their best food and drink.

When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.

By the coming of the Civil War the antipathy shown toward the celebration by some religious groups and like-minded individuals was rapidly softening. Indeed, "by 1859, the general attitude towards Christmas had changed sufficiently for the Sunday School Union" to accept the holiday to such a degree that it published hymns and accounts of celebrations. This was emblematic of a general acceptance of Christmas by many denominations.

Successive waves of German immigrants probably packed in their cultural baggage the custom of adorning their homes with a small tree. As they spread through the nation, so too did the decorated tree. The Christmas tree had become widely established by 1860.

Governments recognized the growing importance of Christmas by dealing with it as they knew best: by passing a law. Prior to the American Civil War, the North and South were divided on the issue of Christmas. Many Northerners considered it sinful to celebrate Christmas, since Thanksgiving was a much more "appropriate" holiday. In the South, however, Christmas played an important role in the social season. Perhaps not surprisingly, the first three American States to declare Christmas a legal holiday were located in the South: Alabama in 1836, and Louisiana and Arkansas in 1838. Between 1850 and 1861, fifteen more states followed suit. In 1907, Oklahoma became the last US state to declare Christmas a legal holiday. A significant result of this "legislation" was the states' recognition of December 25th as Christmas Day. This helped standardize the date for celebration. Previously, celebrations took place at varying times during the month (particularly December 6th, St. Nicholas's day, or January 6th, Epiphany).

The greatest of all modern Christmas icons, Santa Claus, was evolving during the same period. St. Nicholas' first appearance in the New World was in 1492, when Columbus named a bay after him. Times became rather lean for the saint after that, partly because America's mainly Protestant settlers disdained saints and the rituals associated with them. Washington Irving, Clement Moore, and the anonymous author of Kriss Kringle's Book (1842) were the literary pioneers who helped establish Santa Claus. Kriss Kringle's Book told of St. Nicholas, or Kriss Kringle, a "nice, fat, good humored man" who brought gifts for good children.

BTW, as a footnote...Chanukah was first celebrated by American Jews in New Amsterdam in 1654, and has been continuously observed by religious American Jews ever since with virtually no changes to its ritual form (minus, of course, the appearance of holographic silver-and-blue wrapping paper, which I personally consider indispensable :wink: ). But of course, I'm not so foolish as to hope this might have earned it an honorary token place at the American holiday table by now. We're just another whining and ungrateful minority riding Christendom's coattails to success, after all!
 
Wow, I can't believe I just slogged through 14 whole pages of this? :ohmy:

As a Christian living in a majority Muslim country where we are observing the month of Ramadan, I wish you all a very happy holiday season. :D
 
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