The War on Christmas - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-21-2005, 12:14 PM   #61
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
randhail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Outside Providence
Posts: 3,544
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
So would it be okay to tell the Christian students to go to the library and give them computer time, if they object to celebrations of Muslim holidays? Would it be okay if they flat out did not mention Christmas, while parading Muslim holidays? Would it be okay if they were forced to go to school on Christmas? After all, why punish the Muslim majority, just because a few Christians are around for the ride?

Melon
If the party is overtly religious, it should not be allowed regardless of faith. In public schools, I had Christmas parties and religion was never promoted or discussed. These parties celebrate the coming together of friends and commercial aspect of the holiday. If Muslims have a holiday like this, then fine let them celebrate it, just don't read the Koran.
__________________

__________________
randhail is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:15 PM   #62
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,070
Local Time: 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


In Dearborn, Michigan, they have the largest population of Muslims outside of the Middle East. In the public schools in this area, Christians are probably a small minority compared to all the Muslim students.

So would it be okay to tell the Christian students to go to the library and give them computer time, if they object to celebrations of Muslim holidays? Would it be okay if they flat out did not mention Christmas, while parading Muslim holidays? Would it be okay if they were forced to go to school on Christmas? After all, why punish the Muslim majority, just because a few Christians are around for the ride?

Melon
If celebrated the same way Christmas is (was) celebrated in schools, why not. Santa Claus and Christmas Trees are not religious. If Ramadan was secularized to the same extent, do you think there would be an objection?
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:18 PM   #63
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,070
Local Time: 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
I don't believe for a second that someone saying "Jesus Christ" "Oh my God" or even for that matter, as one of my friends has an interesting habit of uttering "Christ on his cross" constitutes bigotry against Christians. And hey, using your own arguments - if you guys don't like people using those phrases then you'd be free to just leave, right? Nobody's forcing you to be around people who use phrases you don't like.
Because you are not offended (and, frankly I don't know you religious background), that doesn't mean that Christians would not be offended. Try using the name "Allah" in a disrepectful tone - what response would you expect? What response would you defend?

And as for the leaving the room argument (which was someone elses, not mine) I can tell you are not serious about that because you would not apply that consistently across all situations.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:20 PM   #64
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,070
Local Time: 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MsGiggles
...nobody has mentioned that even though America accepts all religions - middle eastern countries don't accept christianity at all...King Fahd in an interview stated that it's ok for the westerners living there to practice thier faith as long as it's not in public....so I'm assuming that no churches (or chapels at airports for that matter) would be built for them.

I think ALL countries should be accepting of all religions....and we all should live happy in peace and tranquility
There are groups of Christians in Egypt (and they actually may be a majority in southern Egypt), but they are consistently the target of discrimination.

But, you are right, no one wants to mention that.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:22 PM   #65
Blue Crack Addict
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 29,708
Local Time: 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


There are groups of Christians in Egypt (and they actually may be a majority in southern Egypt), but they are consistently the target of discrimination.

But, you are right, no one wants to mention that.


it is amazing how well you argue the role of the victim when it is your turn to feel discriminated against.

also, everyone has mentioned, repeatedly, that, yes, even today Christians are discriminated against in many countries.

but we are talking about the United States.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:22 PM   #66
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MsGiggles
...nobody has mentioned that even though America accepts all religions - middle eastern countries don't accept christianity at all...King Fahd in an interview stated that it's ok for the westerners living there to practice thier faith as long as it's not in public....so I'm assuming that no churches (or chapels at airports for that matter) would be built for them.

I think ALL countries should be accepting of all religions....and we all should live happy in peace and tranquility
Good point. Muslims need to learn that it is a two way process. Until they learn that, I am opposed to further conciliatory moves such as prayer rooms in airports. The idea of the nasty racist West discriminating against oppressed Muslims is a total and utter myth, as far as I am concerned (although I still think Bush/Blair's invasion of Iraq was a grave error, but that's a different matter.)
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:28 PM   #67
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
The idea of the nasty racist West discriminating against oppressed Muslims is a total and utter myth, as far as I am concerned (although I still think Bush/Blair's invasion of Iraq was a grave error, but that's a different matter.)
Racism against Muslims is a myth? There's been a 600% increase in the number of racist attacks in the UK since July, primarily targeted against the Muslim community or people the racists believe are Muslim. There have been numerous examples of mosques being attacked and people being physically assaulted. And yet you dismiss it as a "total and utter myth"?
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:36 PM   #68
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Racism against Muslims is a myth? There's been a 600% increase in the number of racist attacks in the UK since July, primarily targeted against the Muslim community or people the racists believe are Muslim. There have been numerous examples of mosques being attacked and people being physically assaulted. And yet you dismiss it as a "total and utter myth"?
Yes, but none of that can be called institutionalised racism, as such incidents are condemned without reservation by almost all mainstream politicians in Britain. The example cited by MissGiggles in Saudi Arabia seems to me to be a form of instutionalised discrimination against non-Muslims.

But if we're going to go down that road...then one has to admit that anti-Western prejudice is not a myth either.

Such as Bali (X2).

Such as the assassinations in Holland of those who are too outspoken in criticising Islam.

And let's not mention the failure of some British Muslim leaders to condemn the terrorist attacks in London, or to hedge around their condemnations with qualification and obfuscation. That wouldn't be PC.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:37 PM   #69
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
randhail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Outside Providence
Posts: 3,544
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Racism against Muslims is a myth? There's been a 600% increase in the number of racist attacks in the UK since July, primarily targeted against the Muslim community or people the racists believe are Muslim. There have been numerous examples of mosques being attacked and people being physically assaulted. And yet you dismiss it as a "total and utter myth"?
It's about as accurate as saying Christians aren't persecuted:

From the BBC - At least 12 people have been killed by a Muslim mob which attacked a Christian village in the Moluccan islands in eastern Indonesia.

Terror returned to Central Sulawesi as Muslim extremists attacked five Christian villages on 10 and 12 October. The raids, by far the worst for over a year, could augur another horrific wave of anti-Christian violence.
__________________
randhail is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:38 PM   #70
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Try using the name "Allah" in a disrepectful tone - what response would you expect? What response would you defend?
Or try writing a play satirising Islam. You could be assassinated. Do the same thing about Christianity - you might get a few Bishops complaining, that's about it.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 01:30 PM   #71
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
If celebrated the same way Christmas is (was) celebrated in schools, why not. Santa Claus and Christmas Trees are not religious. If Ramadan was secularized to the same extent, do you think there would be an objection?
Really? If you lived in Dearborn and all this actually transpired, you'd have no problem sending your kids to school on Christmas and Easter, with a full day of classes on Good Friday?

A "bastardized" holiday, such as Christmas has become in Western culture--and I sympathize fully with devout Christians who lament this--is NOT the same thing as a secular holiday. I have yet to meet an observant Jew who puts up a Christmas tree and sings carols at home. This is not, of course, because we hate or reject Christians, but because the recognition of December 25th as a holiday, secular or otherwise, is simply not part of our religious heritage.

Personally, I have never had a huge problem with the fact that my religion is completely ignored by our national holiday calendar. While I appreciate the good intentions behind euphemisms like "holiday party" and singing the dreidl song etc., they don't make up for the fact that my kids still have to go to school during Chanukah anyway. I will admit that having to work on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in our calendar (which I try very hard to avoid, but sometimes cannot) does sometimes set my teeth on edge. But I am not whining "bigotry" or "religious persecution" about it. Nor do I pitch a fit when kosher meals are not provided at public functions. Nor did my brother boo-hoo and moan about the lack of accommodations for Jewish observance when he was stationed at various bases while in the Air Force.

As I mentioned above, the story about not being allowed to say "Merry Christmas" seems to be an urban myth. And if the story about the Arizona student is the same as the one I found on several conservative Christian websites like the Jeremiah Project's, there was no declaration of unconstitutionality involved; rather it was a case of a teacher telling a kindergartener that "books about God are not allowed" when he chose a storybook about "the true meaning of Christmas" for his "Share Your Favorite Story" project. That sounds to me more like the work of one very stupid teacher who doesn't understand the law, than part of some coordinated plot to purge Christianity from the schools.

Honestly, I wonder if this book is really worth all the huffing and puffing going on in here. It sounds suspiciously like a motley collection of random instances of uncoordinated PC idiocy, baseless urban myths, and spurious whining about basically nothing thrown together in one sloppy, half-baked attempt to further convince those whose minds are already made up that some deep-rooted plot to cow Christians into silence is afoot. But perhaps it will prove to be a trenchant masterpiece of investigative journalism. Coming from the author of "Hating America: The New World Sport," though, I'm not optimistic.

And as for all this back-and-forth statistics quoting about Who's- the-Most-Persecuted-of-Them-All...come on guys, at some point that does get a bit cheapening. Commemoration has its place, but at the point where we're reducing it to an occasion to prop up pint-sized tit-for-tat about such little things...
__________________
yolland is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 01:30 PM   #72
ONE
love, blood, life
 
indra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,689
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Prohibiting someone from saying "Merry Christmas" is religious based censorship.

And Arizona prohibiting a student (not a teacher) from discussing the religious aspects of Christmas falls in the same category.
Schools censor a whole lot of things. And I'm guessing many which you would and do find perfectly acceptable. So I'm also guessing you only cry presecution or bigotry when it's something you give a shit about.

Prove me wrong. Tell me you would allow a student to say or discuss anything in school.
__________________
indra is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 01:33 PM   #73
ONE
love, blood, life
 
indra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,689
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by randhail


If you have a classroom with 25 students that celebrate Christmas and 1 student that doesn't, why should all them be punished? I really doubt the kid would object to the party, but the parents probably would. In that case, ask the student to go to the library or give him some computer time.
So that kid doesn't get a party because he or she is the wrong religion? Isn't that persecution?

I'm very happy you are not a teacher or school administrator.
__________________
indra is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 01:38 PM   #74
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MsGiggles
...nobody has mentioned that even though America accepts all religions - middle eastern countries don't accept christianity at all...King Fahd in an interview stated that it's ok for the westerners living there to practice thier faith as long as it's not in public....so I'm assuming that no churches (or chapels at airports for that matter) would be built for them.

I think ALL countries should be accepting of all religions....and we all should live happy in peace and tranquility

Saudi Arabia only recently made observances of Shia Muslims legal. Traditionally, their brand of Sunni Islam, Wahhabism, considers Shias to be infidels, so they didn't allow their practices in the Saudi kingdom. That's how intolerant a place Saudi Arabia is. But that's beside the point, I think. We are talking about the United States and some religious toleration issues here.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 10-21-2005, 01:40 PM   #75
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
randhail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Outside Providence
Posts: 3,544
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by indra


So that kid doesn't get a party because he or she is the wrong religion? Isn't that persecution?

I'm very happy you are not a teacher or school administrator.
That's not persecution, the persecution would come when you have a classroom full of pissed off 5th graders at the one student who didn't want a Christmas party.
__________________

__________________
randhail is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com