The War on Christmas

[financeguy]

The book seems over the top.

But I do wonder, why is it we are expected to build prayer rooms for Muslims in our airports, yet Merry Christmas is somehow 'discriminatory'?

 

[yolland]

The examples given in the book had nothing to do with forcing children to sing explicitly Christian songs. Quite the contrary, it prohibited a Christian from using the simple expression of "Merry Christmas".

According to one of the (for what it's worth) more intelligent-sounding Amazon reviewers, that particular story is an urban myth long since discredited in Chicago, where it originated.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Now it is a matter of degree? You can be a bigot as long as you don't physically assult someone, etc.? This goes back to a concept of "acceptable" bigotry.

I take it then that as a Christian you've never faced any of the examples of persecution I listed in my previous post. How suprising.

And no, bigotry isn't okay whether it takes the form of physical violence or any other form but it just makes me laugh when Christians moan about how persecuted they are when I know that it's other religious groups who actually face persecution for their religious beliefs. Like I said, come back when you face true persecution for your religion, until then don't bother looking for persecution where none exists.

Where does this come from? The examples given in the book had nothing to do with forcing children to sing explicitly Christian songs. Quite the contrary, it prohibited a Christian from using the simple expression of "Merry Christmas".

One of the examples was of Christmas carols not being used in schools. Presumably the reason for this was that some people raised an objection to children being expected to sing an explicitly Christian song regardless of their own religious convictions.

 

[melon]

Typical FYM mentality. Some will defend a charge of racism because the victim should be the one to determine the validity of the charge.

But when it is suggested about Christians, we get responses along the lines of "there are enough of them out there - they can handle it." Guess what - the bigotry is still there.

And we STILL don't have one law that requires you to be a Christian.

None of your rights have been taken away. Why I have no sympathy for Christians a lot of the time is because, to them, "their freedom" is the right to take freedoms away from other people. And then when courts tell them they can't, they cry "discrimination."

I don't know whether devout Christians are collectively psychotic or just victims of two millennia of vigorous brainwashing.

Maybe we should really take away your rights, and then maybe Christianity will stop crying wolf and actually gain some long-overdue empathy for other people.

Melon

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

But I do wonder, why is it we are expected to build prayer rooms for Muslims in our airports, yet Merry Christmas is somehow 'discriminatory'?

Because there's a big difference between providing the means for someone to follow their religious convictions and expecting people to participate in an explicitly Christian celebration regardless of their own religious convictions. How does a Muslim prayer room in an airport affect you? It makes no difference to me if a prayer room is provided at an airport, but it does make a difference to me if I'm expected to participate in a celebration of a religion I reject.

 

[melon]

But I do wonder, why is it we are expected to build prayer rooms for Muslims in our airports, yet Merry Christmas is somehow 'discriminatory'?

You neglect the fact that airports have had, and for a long time, prayer chapels suitable for Christians. I have no opposition to that whatsoever. But with that commitment comes the responsibility to accomodate other faiths. There are far more Muslims in this world than there are Protestant Christians (since the Catholic Church would probably not look favorably on those chapels, I haven't included them in the list).

Melon

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

The book seems over the top.

But I do wonder, why is it we are expected to build prayer rooms for Muslims in our airports, yet Merry Christmas is somehow 'discriminatory'?

And, as I intended to mention in my previous post - why "our" airports? Aren't Muslims a part of "our" society (by which I'm guessing you mean your own country or perhaps just the West in general)?

 

[randhail]

It makes no difference to me if a prayer room is provided at an airport, but it does make a difference to me if I'm expected to participate in a celebration of a religion I reject.

No one is forcing you to participate in anything. If you don't like the situation, then leave. You have the freedom to do that. It's pretty simple.

 

[nbcrusader]

You didn't say whether you considered the examples in the link "bigotry" or not.

Prohibiting someone from saying "Merry Christmas" is religious based censorship.

And Arizona prohibiting a student (not a teacher) from discussing the religious aspects of Christmas falls in the same category.

 

[randhail]

[BAnd no, bigotry isn't okay whether it takes the form of physical violence or any other form but it just makes me laugh when Christians moan about how persecuted they are when I know that it's other religious groups who actually face persecution for their religious beliefs. Like I said, come back when you face true persecution for your religion, until then don't bother looking for persecution where none exists.
[/B]

Are you saying that Christians haven't endured any persecution for their beliefs? History has countless examples of them being persecuted.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

No one is forcing you to participate in anything. If you don't like the situation, then leave. You have the freedom to do that. It's pretty simple.

So why don't we go back to your example about schools. You said you would "make the people who find it offensive leave the classroom." Why should some children be excluded from class because you want to celebrate a particular religion? Why are your religious convictions important enough to give you the right to exclude others?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Are you saying that Christians haven't endured any persecution for their beliefs? History has countless examples of them being persecuted.

I'm sure there are examples of anti-Christian prejudice in history. However to pretend Christians are persecuted in twenty-first century America is nonsense.

 

[financeguy]

There are far more Muslims in this world than there are Protestant Christians (since the Catholic Church would probably not look favorably on those chapels, I haven't included them in the list).

In the world, yes. But countries like the United Kingdom have Christian heritages and I have see a sign to a prayer room for Muslims in Heathrow airport. But's its not a big deal. I just mention the point in passing.

 

[melon]

Are you saying that Christians haven't endured any persecution for their beliefs? History has countless examples of them being persecuted.

The Roman Empire is dead. The Soviet Union is history. Yes, there are examples of current and real persecution in places like China that are happening today, and I hope that someday that ends.

But that's not what we're talking about. Most of us here live in the U.S./Europe/Australia where "Christian persecution" does not exist, and people seem to cry "persecution" if the state does not publically sponsor their belief system. It's a complete slap in the face to people around the world who are really being persecuted for their beliefs. We're very lucky to be able to nitpick over stupid things like saying "Happy Holidays" over "Merry Christmas."

Melon

 

[nbcrusader]

And no, bigotry isn't okay whether it takes the form of physical violence or any other form but it just makes me laugh when Christians moan about how persecuted they are when I know that it's other religious groups who actually face persecution for their religious beliefs. Like I said, come back when you face true persecution for your religion, until then don't bother looking for persecution where none exists.

I'd give your statement credibility if you said the same thing about Stephen Jackson's cry of racism.

And it is curious how you say bigotry is okay, but you'll laugh at some forms of bigotry.

 

[nbcrusader]

I'm sure there are examples of anti-Christian prejudice in history. However to pretend Christians are persecuted in twenty-first century America is nonsense.

Being that you are not a Christian in America, how can you dismiss it so outrightly? I thought bigotry was defined by the victim.

 

[financeguy]

And, as I intended to mention in my previous post - why "our" airports? Aren't Muslims a part of "our" society (by which I'm guessing you mean your own country or perhaps just the West in general)?

Well, I would argue Europe has a predominantly Christian heritage. Certainly, Muslims can be a part of our society (and yes, I meant the West in general, but I was probably thinking of Europe more than the US). But frankly, not if they view the Koran as the fundamental arbiter of what laws to follow and what not to (and it appears that some do).

 

[randhail]

So why don't we go back to your example about schools. You said you would "make the people who find it offensive leave the classroom." Why should some children be excluded from class because you want to celebrate a particular religion? Why are your religious convictions important enough to give you the right to exclude others?

If you have a classroom with 25 students that celebrate Christmas and 1 student that doesn't, why should all them be punished? I really doubt the kid would object to the party, but the parents probably would. In that case, ask the student to go to the library or give him some computer time.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

And it is curious how you say bigotry is okay, but you'll laugh at some forms of bigotry.

Actually I said it isn't okay but I'll assume you just made a typing error. That aside, I don't laugh at bigotry - I laugh at the idea that Christians are the victim of it in twenty-first century American society.

 

[nbcrusader]

So why don't we go back to your example about schools. You said you would "make the people who find it offensive leave the classroom." Why should some children be excluded from class because you want to celebrate a particular religion? Why are your religious convictions important enough to give you the right to exclude others?

You argument only holds water if the school room celebration is explicitly Christian. That doesn't happen anymore and is not part of the discussion.

 

[financeguy]

In that case, ask the student to go to the library or give him some computer time.

Sounds like a reasonable solution to me.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

You argument only holds water if the school room celebration is explicitly Christian. That doesn't happen anymore and is not part of the discussion.

I'm pretty sure singing a Christmas carol is in fact explicitly Christian.

 

[nbcrusader]

Actually I said it isn't okay but I'll assume you just made a typing error. That aside, I don't laugh at bigotry - I laugh at the idea that Christians are the victim of it in twenty-first century American society.

Yes, the first part was a typo. But since you are not a Christian in 21st century American society, on what basis do you laugh at the bigotry that exists here. Even using the name of the Christian God (Jesus Christ) in a disrespectful manner is part of everyday language for some people.

 

[randhail]

I'm pretty sure singing a Christmas carol is in fact explicitly Christian.

So Frosty the snowman, Rudolph the red nosed reindeer, Jingle bell rock, and Santa Claus is coming to town are explicitly Christian christmas carols?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

If you have a classroom with 25 students that celebrate Christmas and 1 student that doesn't, why should all them be punished? I really doubt the kid would object to the party, but the parents probably would. In that case, ask the student to go to the library or give him some computer time.

They're not being punished though -- all I'm saying is that religious celebrations don't belong in a school which should be a place where children of all faiths and no faith are equally welcome. To exclude any children from participating in an event because of their religion is wrong.

 

[nbcrusader]

I'm pretty sure singing a Christmas carol is in fact explicitly Christian.

In addition to randhail's point, the example given in the book have nothing to do with singing Christian lyrics. It dealt with playing instrumental versions of carols.

 

[randhail]

They're not being punished though -- all I'm saying is that religious celebrations don't belong in a school which should be a place where children of all faiths and no faith are equally welcome. To exclude any children from participating in an event because of their religion is wrong.

If you take away a Christmas party, then you are punishing them. These are not parties with a nativity scene acted out, it's doing secret santa and decorating a tree.

 

[melon]

If you have a classroom with 25 students that celebrate Christmas and 1 student that doesn't, why should all them be punished? I really doubt the kid would object to the party, but the parents probably would. In that case, ask the student to go to the library or give him some computer time.

In Dearborn, Michigan, they have the largest population of Muslims outside of the Middle East. In the public schools in this area, Christians are probably a small minority compared to all the Muslim students.

So would it be okay to tell the Christian students to go to the library and give them computer time, if they object to celebrations of Muslim holidays? Would it be okay if they flat out did not mention Christmas, while parading Muslim holidays? Would it be okay if they were forced to go to school on Christmas? After all, why punish the Muslim majority, just because a few Christians are around for the ride?

Melon

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Yes, the first part was a typo. But since you are not a Christian in 21st century American society, on what basis do you laugh at the bigotry that exists here. Even using the name of the Christian God (Jesus Christ) in a disrespectful manner is part of everyday language for some people.

If we're talking about simple personal experience then I'll just say that I have lived in America. But I think if you base political debate about one individual's experience then you fail to understand the way that various social groups in society interact and how their experiences of society differ.

I don't believe for a second that someone saying "Jesus Christ" "Oh my God" or even for that matter, as one of my friends has an interesting habit of uttering "Christ on his cross" constitutes bigotry against Christians. And hey, using your own arguments - if you guys don't like people using those phrases then you'd be free to just leave, right? Nobody's forcing you to be around people who use phrases you don't like.

 

[MsGiggles]

...nobody has mentioned that even though America accepts all religions - middle eastern countries don't accept christianity at all...King Fahd in an interview stated that it's ok for the westerners living there to practice thier faith as long as it's not in public....so I'm assuming that no churches (or chapels at airports for that matter) would be built for them.

I think ALL countries should be accepting of all religions....and we all should live happy in peace and tranquility