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Old 10-24-2005, 12:21 PM   #226
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Originally posted by melon


I'd rather complain in favor of inclusion (liberalism) than complain in favor of exclusion (conservatism).

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Funny, none of your arguments have been about inclusion.
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Old 10-24-2005, 12:23 PM   #227
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Originally posted by Irvine511
for gosh sakes, there's nothing wrong with having holiday celebrations in schools, there is a problem when they use exclusive nomenclature.
So, let's try and develop a principle we can apply consistently.

If a term can be deemed to exclude a person, it should be dropped?

Can you please articulate the principle that should be applied consistently?
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Old 10-24-2005, 12:32 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
No, I had no problem with it personally.

And there were aspects of secular Christmas in the classroom (all the kids made reindeer t-shirts).

The point is: no one made an effort to remove words that were rooted in various religions.
Oh. Well, to me anyway, it makes no difference. If the substance of inclusion is there (which it was), who cares if it's called a "Christmas/Chanukah party" as opposed to "Holiday" or whatever. JMO.

Glad to hear you at least don't have a problem with there being a Chanukah gesture in there, though. It's the implication that I'm being subversive, or anti-Christian, or worse, anti-American to *want* such a gesture that angers and, not to be melodramatic, deeply wounds and saddens me. I've never objected to a "Christmas" presence, myself.
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Old 10-24-2005, 12:47 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Funny, none of your arguments have been about inclusion.
Then maybe you need to get your eyes checked.

My argument has not been about "excluding" Christmas. It's about "including" additional religious traditions, since it is called the "holiday season" for a reason. And, just to give you a hint, there's more than just Christian holidays in that season. If a certain minority of Christians can't handle exposure to different cultures and traditions, maybe they can be shipped off to "computer time."

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Old 10-24-2005, 12:57 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Let's take your original phrase:

"but that the country has many, many Christians who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions."


and change a couple of words:

"but that the country has many, many liberals who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions."



And there is no argument for discrimination. It has only been a rather vague concept of "feeling excluded".


i see -- so you're going to conflate a very, very loosely defined political world with something as specific as Christianity.

the analogy holds no water. you've constructed a false choice.

what liberalism has always been about, in this context, is acknowledging that no particular group, whether in the majority or minorty, is a priori "better" than the other -- thus, to hold one up as "normal" makes the other, by definition, "less than normal" and confers that feeling of 2nd class citizen-ness upon those in the minority.

hence, the problem becomes solved with the phrase "holiday" party -- we acknoweldge that pretty much everyone has holidays to celebrate in December, so on one day when we can spare 45 minutes from the cramming teachers have to do because all education now comes down to a bunch of federal and state tests we talk about the major holidays that are represented in the class, we get some history, some decorations -- the dreidle next to the reindeer -- some cookies, some punch, and everyone gets a chance to both represent their family's tradition as well as learn about someone else's.

a Christmas party, which is by definition about a single religion, unless we were to set aside a day for every holiday to have their own separate party, can accomplish none of this.

it excludes.

but, hey, what do white christian Americans know about exclusion?
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Old 10-24-2005, 12:58 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


So, let's try and develop a principle we can apply consistently.

If a term can be deemed to exclude a person, it should be dropped?

Can you please articulate the principle that should be applied consistently?

when you're talking about the public schools, yep.

also, not necessarily dropped, but perhaps modified.
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Old 10-24-2005, 01:43 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i see -- so you're going to conflate a very, very loosely defined political world with something as specific as Christianity.

the analogy holds no water. you've constructed a false choice.

what liberalism has always been about, in this context, is acknowledging that no particular group, whether in the majority or minorty, is a priori "better" than the other -- thus, to hold one up as "normal" makes the other, by definition, "less than normal" and confers that feeling of 2nd class citizen-ness upon those in the minority.

hence, the problem becomes solved with the phrase "holiday" party -- we acknoweldge that pretty much everyone has holidays to celebrate in December, so on one day when we can spare 45 minutes from the cramming teachers have to do because all education now comes down to a bunch of federal and state tests we talk about the major holidays that are represented in the class, we get some history, some decorations -- the dreidle next to the reindeer -- some cookies, some punch, and everyone gets a chance to both represent their family's tradition as well as learn about someone else's.

a Christmas party, which is by definition about a single religion, unless we were to set aside a day for every holiday to have their own separate party, can accomplish none of this.

it excludes.
Talk about your false choices. Using the word Christmas establishes a "norm", thus automatically creating second class citizens? A Christmas party, as done in schools over the generations, is not about a religion. It is about a secular tradition. And like so many things in society, not everyone adopts those particular traditions. But we have no systematic program in place to erase traditions not embrased by everyone.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

but, hey, what do white christian Americans know about exclusion?
I guess a one-way conversation is easier.



But, then again,
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Old 10-24-2005, 01:45 PM   #233
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Originally posted by Irvine511



when you're talking about the public schools, yep.

also, not necessarily dropped, but perhaps modified.
Yep to what?

I'll leave you to articulate the appropriate standard.
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Old 10-24-2005, 02:17 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Talk about your false choices. Using the word Christmas establishes a "norm", thus automatically creating second class citizens? A Christmas party, as done in schools over the generations, is not about a religion. It is about a secular tradition. And like so many things in society, not everyone adopts those particular traditions. But we have no systematic program in place to erase traditions not embrased by everyone.


so let's take the secular trappings of christmas, and combine them with the secular trappings of other holidays that take place in december, and line them all up next to each other under the umbrella of "holiday" thereby making all children feel different, but equally valued and special, and leave it at that.

why do you insist on the exclusivity of a christmas party?

if i were to have a volleyball team party, i'd be happy for people who weren't on the volleyball team to show up and party with us, but at the end of the day, the party is for and about the volleyball players.

same principle applies.
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Old 10-24-2005, 02:18 PM   #235
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Yep to what?

I'll leave you to articulate the appropriate standard.


yep to we try to find language that's as inclusive as possible.

hence, holiday party vs. christmas party.

i don't understand -- it's such an easy way to make everyone happy.

are you threatened by the suggestion that, in the eyes of the public schools, one religion isn't better than the other?
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Old 10-24-2005, 02:23 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
yep to we try to find language that's as inclusive as possible.

hence, holiday party vs. christmas party.

i don't understand -- it's such an easy way to make everyone happy.

are you threatened by the suggestion that, in the eyes of the public schools, one religion isn't better than the other?

Because it's not a 'holiday' party, it's a Christmas party. Why no similar push to force Jewish communities to rename their celebrations 'holiday' parties? Should Hallowe'en be renamed 'October Holiday'?
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Old 10-24-2005, 02:29 PM   #237
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Because it's not a 'holiday' party, it's a Christmas party. Why no similar push to force Jewish communities to rename their celebrations 'holiday' parties? Should Hallowe'en be renamed 'October Holiday'?


a Hannukkah celebration is an ideal component of this Holiday Party.

Halloween is a secular celebration.
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Old 10-24-2005, 02:34 PM   #238
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Originally posted by financeguy
Because it's not a 'holiday' party, it's a Christmas party. Why no similar push to force Jewish communities to rename their celebrations 'holiday' parties? Should Hallowe'en be renamed 'October Holiday'?
If Jewish communities have control of a public school that happen to have a minority of other religions in its school, I'd tell them to open up their holiday festivities too.

And, last I heard, Halloween is fully secular. After all, every year, we get a good dose of articles where clerics of many stripes hate it.

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Old 10-24-2005, 02:39 PM   #239
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Originally posted by Irvine511
Halloween is a secular celebration.

Not necessarily, it clearly has pagan origins. Paganism could be considered a religion in its own right.

As others have argued on the thread, Christmas has also become increasingly secular - it seems to me a bit over the top to argue that holding a 'Christmas party' is akin to religious proselytisation.
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Old 10-24-2005, 03:06 PM   #240
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Throw in Valentine's Day as a holiday with religious origins. Should kids stop giving out cards and candy at school on that day too? Or should we call it "Non-denominational, everyone is included so no one throws a hissy fit about it day?"
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